Collection of atheist and atheism motivational posters

Posted On Oct 25, 2008 at 2:50 am
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Here is a collection of 41 atheism motivational posters. If you know of any more that are not on the list, post them in the comments!

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creepermclurker's Avatar
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creepermclurker Apr 09, 2009

B.S.

Citation?

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chilli Sep 10, 2011

Ok i did a school project on Einstein and studied his life several times let me end this silly argument. EINSTEIN WAS JEWISH! He searched for proof of god in his equations but he never could find any and so died pretty upset with himself. However he did outwardly say he didn't believe in the afterlife! Galileo and Copernicus i studied too. They both were "christen" in name only and actually rebelled against the church often! Hell both were tried for hearricy! Copernicus was too afraid to publish his findings so he had asked his wife to publish them after he died so the CHURCH couldn't have him executed! Newton was, in fact, THE FIRST ATHEIST! He had to hide it for most of his life because again, the Church could have him EXECUTED! But towards the end of his life he admitted it. Now to end all battle science is indeed the ENEMY of religion and always has been always will be! BECAUSE science can allow us to, in a religious sense of things, play god. Religion has a history of trying to kill brilliant minds of the past because reason and free thought are the exact opposite of BLIND FAITH! And if people think for themselves the people are harder to control and religion likes control! also people can easily reason out that religion in it's hole is nothing but a bunch of wild myths that's why it's number one concepts are blind faith and not to think! to quote many a religious texts and scholars, "We are but the lords sheep." Sheep blindly fallow their master even if it's to their death. But lets treat religion like a product for your soul. Would you buy something when someone says "QUICK, don't think about it! you only have 20 seconds to decide. By now for the easy price of (oh say) 1000$ (your soul)!" No you wouldn't. i'm sure your parents should have taught you never buy something when someone is trying to rush your purchase cause chances are you'll be scammed. well guess what, that's how religion works. I am neither religious or atheist, i'm agnostic. And i despise religion on a hole. all of it! But i only question the existence of god. I don't flat out deny it because i don't know of it! I can neither prove nor disprove his existence there for the question is not scientific. BUT ALL RELIGION CAN BE BOTH PROVEN AND DISPROVEN AND SCIENCE HAS DISPROVEN NEARLY ALL OF IT!

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dave thayer Aug 30, 2009

I don't reject the idea of god, but the gods expressed by the existing religions are silly, if not horrible to me. The threat of punishment by most religions for not believing is proof that they are false. On the same token, I don't feel pressured into having to believe in a god, as most religious people are (when I was "religious" it was out of fear). I believe that the christian religion is a religion of hatred because it promises hell before it promises salvation (those who do not accept jesus are damned).

I also don't see the limitations of the natural selection theory to be a proof for god. Indeed, evolution seems is a creative process, as seen in the complex camouflage of butterflies, the colors of birds, adn the intellect of humans: natural selection cannot explain this - this does not mean that god created it; it just shows the limitations of science.
And just because there might be 'soul' this also does not prove the existence of 'god'. God is a very limited theory which may or may not be true, and we have no right to use the word as a political tool. I believe that those who utter the word 'god' are either being manipulated because they are of limited mental or spiritual capacity, or they are the ones benefiting politically or economically from religion. Religion is simply 'crowd control'. I think if we had a healthy society we would need no religion, and the ending of religion is the beginning of a healthy society, where people are educated beyond simple and clearly wrong explanations for how life was created.

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Thomas May 26, 2010

First of all, the Bible is pretty clear. It says that if you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and that he died on the cross for your sins, then you will live forever with God in Heaven. If you don't you shall perish. This is pretty much summed up in John 3:16. In fact, for most of the New Testament, you will find passages declaring the love of God, not the Hellfire and Brimstone that most people hear. Secondly, it is true that we can see the effects of microevolution. The development of camouflage, more acute senses, elongated beaks, etc. pretty much any change that helps a certain species adapt to their surroundings. I do believe, however, that macroevolution, for lack of a better phrase, is just wrong. The theory itself is full of "maybe"s and "believe"s, far too many for science anyway, and the so-called "inferior" life forms are still around. Also, if we are the top of the evolutionary chain, so far, why do we have absolutely no natural, physical methods of survival? We have no claws, we have herbivore teeth,we can't swim, run, or fly, better than any other animal. We have no protective coverings, we can't rely on size, or a show of strength. We have opposable thumbs, like other primates, and our intelligence really only seems to be helpful when we have resources to draw on. We are the smartest creatures on the planet, allegedly, right above dolphins. Somehow, in the whole evolutionary process, we lost all of the natural physical tools that our "ancestors" had, with the exception of thumbs, and we gained intellect that surpassed a marine mammal. How is it that our "ancestors" aren't second on the list? I'm just curious as to why, if there is so much irrefutable scientific evidence, there are still so many questions.

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sean Nov 29, 2011

While I have no reply about evolution since biology is not the field of science i particularly care about. I do have a reply to the point you made about the Big Bang being accepted as scientific fact without any precursory evidence to prove it as such. Let me start by saying i have had an interest in physics since a very young age, probably when I looked through my first telescope at the age of 5. Now, Just so I leave no rock unturned... the current big bang theory states that nearly 13.7 billion years ago, our universe, including all the matter and space was packed into an EXTREMELY HOT, tiny tiny tiny speck. So tiny that a speck of dust might as well be the entire universe as it looks to you... then in an instant, the universe started to expand... it did not EXPLODE! it simply started to rapidly expand. now without getting into the nitty gritty, there were patches of "universe" which were more densely packed with matter than others, and as the universe continued to expand and cool, these dense spots became the galaxies that we now see. So how do we get from spacious galaxies to a furiously hot speck as the start of the universe? It starts with Einstein's General Relativity, which originally had predicted that the universe was expanding, but Einstein decided to "fix" this, due to his stubborn taste for a static universe, with a "Cosmological Constant" which made the universe static and unchanging. Which by the way was proven to be a mistake by I think Hubble, who observed that galaxies were moving apart. (recently a Nobel Prize was awarded for the discovery that the universe is actually expanding at an Accelerated rate.) Anyway Einstein was embarrassed by his Cosmological constant and called it "the biggest blunder of his life". So now we see that the universe is obviously expanding so what was it doing in the past? For this we need to establish what Dr. Brian Greene calls an "arrow of time". Which if you are interested you can read the establishment of this arrow and how we come about with the big bang theory more in depth in his book "The Fabric of the Cosmos" Anyway Greene uses a well respected and mathematically derived theory of Entropy to set the direction of this arrow. Entropy is a theory of thermodynamics which states "any physical system will transition from a state of order to a state of disorder when left to its own devices" Think about an egg falling off your counter, once it hits the floor it smashes into a disorderly mess all over your kitchen. at the start you have an egg, a nice orderly system, at the end you have a disorderly mess. This is how it will always be correct? you could stare at the mess on you floor for eternity but nothing will ever cause the components of the egg to leap into action and reconstruct itself as it was on the counter... the same can be said for the universe. (i had neglected to mention that Einstein's General Relativity brought space and time into one flexible entity "space-time") If as time progresses the universe expands, then if we started to rewind time if you will, we would see the universe begin to shrink. the further and further we go back there is a point where there can be no more shrinking, hence the beginning of the universe.
So yes like religion Science does make assumptions without any precursory evidence, however this is not done blindly. Rather it is done using already established, mathematically sound, and experimentally verified theories along with observation to make an accurate prediction of what could be fact. And by the way the title "Big Bang Theory" is a bit of a misnomer... its really more of a "Big Bang Model" i think the Theory part was published by the media and it just caught on. and to be completely honest not ONE scientist will tell you that the BBT is accepted as scientific fact. it is merely used as a convenient tool to describe what we observe. Truthfully any PhD Scientist will tell you that there is no such thing as a scientific fact. Its all theory, some are just accepted more than others.

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Larry Apr 11, 2009

Easy answer to being "under attack"...keep your mouth shut. I am (for the most part) considered a Christian...I don't actively go to church, and I don't pray (in the traditional sense)...but I also don't volunteer my religious view every time I open my mouth. I have met a rather disproportionate number of people who claim either Paganism (Wicca and the like) or Atheism as their religion (or anti-religion, as is, in each case appropro.) and I have yet to meet one...JUST ONE...who doesn't rattle on about it from the first moments of any conversation.
It seems to me, if you want to avoid persecution for your beliefs...don't go 'round spouting rhetoric to everyone you meet.
I have no discordance with anyone's beliefs, and I expect the same from those I meet...but if the collective thought amongst Atheists is that it takes someone smart to deny the existance of God, well...I can show you a whole room full of Kindergardener-age kids who can back you all up.
That's not an attack on intelligence, just a viewpoint concerning the lack of reference that children have that just happens to coincide with Atheistic beliefs. Instead of attacking a religion for it's faults, why not bend your (obviously) formidable insights towards a more productive goal? Religion has been a force (problematic or not) for almost as long we mankind has been able to communicate amongst his own kind...you are not going to release the mindless masses from the grip of something ingrained into our psyche with clever posters or ad campaigns...I don't think there will ever be a world without a religion...Humans need something to believe in more than they need companionship.
And while I am on about it, helping those who are less fortunate than yourself is a wonderfully humanitarian effort and a greatly fulfilling prospect...it matters not if you are (misguidedly or not) doing it because you feel it is your duty under your religion's tenets, or because you believe in Karma...whatever your reason, good deeds are still good deeds.
I myself have never been at ease with the concepts that Catholicism spreads. I suppose, in my own way, I have come to terms with my faith, and I no longer need the "shepherding" that is offered by organized religions.

Wynnde

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Reklamfox Jun 11, 2010

Its that classic line of Christian thinking that all social morality comes from the bible and a belief in God, and no one would have any kind of morals or basic respect and decency without a 2000 year old book telling them what to do. Any intelligent and functional member of society can tell you that it is most certainly in your best interest to treat your fellow man with respect and kindness in the hope that they would have enough respect to do the same. This rudimentary system of give and take is something that MOST atheists have a very clear grasp on. We don't need a God or any higher power to tell us to be good people, we just do it because its the right thing to do and it benefits us to help others. It's not selfish to expect that the kindness you show towards others should be returned. And it is quite ridiculous to expect that a book written 2000 years ago by the same people who believed they were backed by God when they stoned women to death should be considered the moral compass to run a country. America is not a Christian nation, it is a nation of free thinkers with the right to believe anything we choose. You want to be a Christian and teach your children about your faith? Thats fine, it's your choice and your business. But when the crazy religious nut jobs (of ANY faith) attempt to push their way into my public schools and try to indoctrinate my children then we have a major problem. How many atheists do you see attempting to force our lack of beliefs into public schools? Do not make the mistake that most religious people make and assume science is the same as atheism. And do not assume that all atheists are blood thirsty amoral Satan worshipers. Being alone doesn't mean being lonely. Why do you need a book to tell you that being a good person is the right thing to do anyway?

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Labiofus Jul 01, 2010

"If every human is equal," every human is NOT equal.

"and there is no divine force," define 'divine force' that means something different in almost every culture.

"then why do i need to obey a system of laws that was developed by a government that was founded by a bunch protestants?" because the needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few. As a 'socially dependant' species those laws are made (theoretically) by the group to deem what is 'socially' acceptable. If you don't want to obey them, move to where there are no other people and you can do whatever you want, until then you are a part of a culture therefore you are 'suppose' to follow the rules of that culture.

"If evolution is a fact, not just a theory," evolution is proven and is a fact. To which extent is the current debate.

"what right to those pedantic old farts on capitol hill have to tell me what to do?" Because people like you and others of your species elected them.

"Shouldn't I be able to take whatever I want, and kill whoever I want as long as I CAN do it?" You can, in the earlier years of humans evolution it was simply the strong did survive. You can still do that but there are penalties for those actions because the rest of your species made the conscious decision to 'say' that those action are not acceptable.

"Evolution happened, allegedly," evolution did happen, it has been proven.

"because those that could survive or thrive, did. Therefore, if someone can't stop me from doing something, I should be allowed to do it." You are allowed to do whatever you want, but their are consequences for those actions as deemed by the rest of your species. Many species in nature banish, kill their like because of certain actions.

"And why help people? Why give money to charity when you can blow it on luxuries that make your life easier?" Good question, why does a wounded animal recieve help in licking their wounds from a parent or another of their species. Compassion, greed, almost every 'human' emotion/trait can be found within other species in nature.

"There is no right or wrong, no karmic balance, or immortal referee keeping score, there is only what people want to do." right versus wrong is an issue of morality, not science.

"It is honestly a chaotic and selfish belief that a random explosion sent a cosmic marble into pieces all throughout space, and somehow exactly one species on this planet became capable of speech. Despite a lack of natural defenses of any kind, it somehow managed to become the premier multicellular organism on the planet because of alleged intelligence, which we see everyday on the internet is just a myth." -- and the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your Master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree, somehow makes perfect, unquestionable sense to you?

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Ezio Jul 25, 2010

Your rudimentary understanding of biology has led you to the conclusion that there would ultimately be only one species left in the world. This is a fallacy. Creatures and pretty much everything in this little fish tank we call earth are interdependent.
Evolution does not have a set goal it is simply moving on so there's no reason why another species, or natural factor, can bring about the demise of what looks like an unbeatable species.
There are things that are difficult to account for in tracing evolution. These include adapting to climate change, being overtaken by other species that have adapted, and cultural variables. The reason we see undesirable traits live on in certain animal societies is because of the community protecting one another.
Humans do not have so many great defenses but what we accomplish is due to the effort of the group. We went from scavenging to encroaching land when we built societies. We used intellect and we developed better tools.
Looking at only the genes may be a mistake. (It makes me sweat to make such a bold statement without having the proper credentials.) You must account for all these little variables that can make a big difference. The theory is solid. I won't go into abiogenesis because the theory of evolution explains the variety of species.
A big blow to the theory would be a fossil inexplicably out of place, this is excluding those that move due to the earth it was in moving. Another big blow could be something like say a pegasus. It would require what is a statistical impossibility a mammal to develop avian wings for flight. The theory of evolution has passed these trials with flying colors.

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James M. Anderson Jul 17, 2010

"You do realize that Christians searching to understand God and how He created all of this (created it for himself, not for us) are the driving force behind most of the scientific advances since the dark ages?"

They were also the driving force behind it's suppresion and the burning of its creators. As for it not being for us? Not a very Humanist outlook on life you have.

"Many Christians still feel this way."

Of course they do.

"Evolution explains how animals have become so diverse, but not how humans separated from the rest of the animals."

Blatantly wrong. We came into existance the same way they did.

"The big bang explains how the universe was formed and how it is continuing to spread, but not where the cloud of cosmic dust came from."

Blatantly wrong. The big bang theory states that an infinitely dense mass expanded outward. MASS. The dust (really it was Hydrogen gas) cloud came into being.

"Yes we should continue the search for answers in every ethical way."

Morality is the embodiemeant of the Super Ego. In short, it's how we are trained to act. It is not set. Ethics don't matter.

"We may eventually find definitively that man evolved from the other animals,"

We already have. All life on Earth shares a common ancestor. This has been proven time and time again.

"but there are many of us who would not find that a contradiction of the truths of the Bible."

Then why don't you believe it already? Religion is a corruption of mankind.

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Will Apr 08, 2009

"I have yet to meet an atheist that just relaxes in their world view."

This is almost certainly not true. A good number of nonbelievers don't bother to advertise their stance because it's simply not an issue they're dwelling on, so you've probably met many atheists and never even known it.

"You revel in your opposition to the belief systems. That means you define yourself by it."

I'm a skeptic and a cynic -- I enjoy and consider it important to take apart fallacious arguments, whether religious, political, scientific, or what have you. I'm no more defined by my opposition to religious belief than I am by my opposition to political belief, and if I bother to engage in debate it's in the sincere desire to come to a point in time where I will not have to be subjected yet again to the same woolly-headed thinking that I'm faced with, or better yet to have my own argument defeated and learn something new in the process.

The problem is simple -- if you do not literally live and die by every last command given throughout the entire bible then your Christian faith is hollow. If you pick and choose which portions of the book to listen to then you can't call yourself a Christian. More importantly once you discard some of the instructions of that book (stoning for disobedient children and those who work on Sundays for instance) there is no reason to attach special significance to any of it. Either it is a complete and inviolable text, without exception and with God's own imprimatur, or it's just another book. I've found value in plenty of portions of the book -- the Song of Solomon has some nice bits, and Jesus seemed like a decent if confused man. I don't call myself a Christian or pretend that the book has unique significance to me. I've also found valuable lessons in other ancient mythology, the poetry of e.e. cummings, and the allegory of Moby Dick. If I were to form an argument based on Dick's portrayal of hubris I would not call on Melville's authority to defend my argument, but examples of how pride -- in and out of that text -- lead to bad results. The ultimate shortcoming of the ethical teachings of the bible (aside from their own contradictions within the text) is that they almost all rest on the authority of God and the threat of damnation to justify them. In many cases there is no meaningful argument for these proscriptions without these threats and intimidation. Even the nice bits with Jesus are largely proclamations and parable without substantive argument behind them.

So, the argument for Christianity is that based solely on the (long since transcribed in difficult to translate ancient tongues, with many variants of the source texts in existence) word of an absolute deity who refuses to show himself or act directly to correct the faults of his own creation, we are to follow a byzantine and inconsistent code of conduct that advocates murder by mobs, discrimination, slavery, and war. The authority this god is presumed to have is derived entirely from claims made in a single book supposedly written by . . . himself. (Meanwhile a number of similar books with differing proscriptions and commands present similarly absolute arguments based on similar reasoning. The Christian bible makes no effort to justify itself over their counterclaims.)

My counter offer is that people mind their own business, make peace and fairness their first goals in conduct, and mostly just try not to be dicks. My argument rests on no authority but can rather be supported by the countless examples of how this manner of living leads to increased happiness and productivity for everyone, including the practitioner.

So no, when I'm at home or out for a drink or socializing I don't often go out of my way to bring up any particular religion. I'm far more likely to talk about some geeky tech stuff or music or food. But -- just like if someone were in my vicinity trying to sell Amway or gather a crowd to go queer stomping or steal a car -- when it's in my face I'll spare a few minutes to try and quell that noise.

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Christian Mar 29, 2010

he does not!

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Joelle Jul 26, 2011

Faith is a belief, not based on proof - by definition. So, you have faith that god does not exist. There is no proof that God does not exist and a lack of evidence does not prove the existence or non existence of anything. Let the evidence speak for itself. Your religion, is a belief that there is no one but you, so you, therefore make yourself to be your own God. This is the original sin: Adam and Eve, wanting to be like God "knowing both good and evil" ate of the forbidden fruit. Then, they became aware that they were naked and that evil exists. However, before adam and eve ever sinned, Satan (Lucifer, his original name) wanting to become like God, rallied 1/3 of the angels to uprival against the creator. When God created the earth, Lucifer tempted man to be a god just like him. As the bible says, Satan has become the Prince of the world. This is why bad things happen. Satan rules this earth. However when Jesus comes back, justice will be done. Those who lived for themselves, only pleasing themselves will be condemned just like satan himself. However, God reserves for himself his own, those who share the love and grace that has been given to them. we are lights in a very dark world (its obviously a very dark owrkd). Jesus said, "if you want to know pure religion, take care of widows and orphans." This is the work of Jesus.
The book of romans speaks of athiesm: That the wrath of God is being poured out on man CURRENTLY - that God has made it known to you through the law in your heart (what separates us from the animals: the awareness of immorality of stealing, lying, cheating, coveting..etc) but you neither worshipped him as God nor gave thanks so God hardened your heart. The bad thing about hell is not eternal flames and nashing of teeth - it is being eternally seperated from your creator. The reference is Romans 1:18-32. Those who do not see themselves for the wretched selfish people we are, will never see God. Blessed are the poor in Spirit (those who mourn their sins) for they will see God. His grace will set you free. and the answers to your life are in this ancient book, the bible. Feel free to email me with any debates or questions. Bytheearth@yahoo.com

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Try Again. Apr 08, 2009

"Superseding your argument, God created us with conscience."

An interesting statement. But completely circumventing any semblance of an argument you seem to think you have, God created not one person with a conscience. As a matter of fact, God only created two people ever. From the good book itself, Genesis 3:22 / "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

What God DID give humankind was free will. With conscience, Eve wouldn't have eaten the apple from the tree; she would have already known the serpent was a manifestation of evil and was attempting to spoil the life she and Adam led. With free will, she made a conscious (not conscience) choice to take the apple over the warning of both God and Adam, leading to the aforementioned gain of a conscience and the expulsion from Eden.

You also write "We are created to do good things." The concept of free will is one of the largest cornerstones of most major religions, including Christianity; this essentially destroys your argument. People aren't created to "do" anything; the choices each person makes in life forge the consequences they face, good or bad. Stalin and Hitler exterminated 35 million people between their regimes; I find very few ways you could create any sort of "good" argument for these acts.

My point in making these statements is simply this: religion is both one of the most edifying and terrifying establishments in the history of mankind. Your approach to the discussion is simply to spout out what someone told you in Sunday school with no actual knowledge of the subject; might I suggest you actually read the Bible before you attempt to dictate Christianity to anyone?

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Jeff Apr 09, 2009

^
Cop out.

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Redalert Apr 09, 2009

Sorry I hit submit button prematurely. Sorry for the wrong grammar and everything else since english is not my primary language.

"An interesting statement. But completely circumventing any semblance of an argument you seem to think you have, God created not one person with a conscience. As a matter of fact, God only created two people ever. From the good book itself, Genesis 3:22 / "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

What God DID give humankind was free will. With conscience, Eve wouldn't have eaten the apple from the tree; she would have already known the serpent was a manifestation of evil and was attempting to spoil the life she and Adam led. With free will, she made a conscious (not conscience) choice to take the apple over the warning of both God and Adam, leading to the aforementioned gain of a conscience and the expulsion from Eden."

Man is free to do what he wants as long as it is within the boundary of being constructive. We are free to do good but not bad, we are not free to harm others. The constructive sense imprinted to all of us guide even the people and society who don't believe in God. This constructive sense is not same for everyone. It's basically the sense to do something good so people do stuff though it may be actually detrimental to others or destructive.

The serpent manipulated the constructive sense innate within us to fool Eve. If the serpent told her all along the truth she must not likely have eaten the forbidden fruit.

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Try Again. Apr 08, 2009

"Duh.. religious people see charity and relief works as important to help their fellow man. You talk as if all religious people as self serving when in fact religious people with religious beliefs are more willing to perform selfless deeds."

You are generalizing again, and there is absolutely no proof you can show that religious people are more willing to do anything than a non religious person. Police officers and fire fighters put their lives on the line daily; this doesn't espouse some religious overtone. They might be religious; they aren't more courageous because of that fact, they are relevant because they know that what they do might have serious consequences for them, yet they do it anyway.

Religions may give you a belief structure, but they don't instantly make you less of a d-bag. The Avignon papacy proves this; the French line of kings in the late 14th century decided they could buy their way into heaven and created a pope in their own country they controlled; dividing the church in a massive plot to accumulate wealth and subjugate neighboring states with their new found "divine authority."

You can't look at the world with such a black and white set of blinders on; human beings aren't black and white and neither are religions. Times change, and with them so do religious doctrines.

That's right, religions do get things wrong. The big shocker is that people seem to forget that religions are created by... *gasp* humans! And humans, being their lovable, fallible selves, do occasionally screw things up. The proof in the pudding is if you, like they have in the past, open your mind to realize that having a belief structure doesn't necessarily make you right or wrong; it just gives you a compass through which to respond to other people's beliefs and ultimately should allow you to codify your beliefs into something more concrete.

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Random Jun 02, 2009

Ok, I just have to throw this in here....you can't really consider humans black or white...just different shades of brown and tan....a truly white person is an albino and even then you can't really call them white....and i have yet to see a truly black human..just a really really really dark brown one.

The world exists with all differnt shades, emotions and actions and words are all different shades. EVERYTHING has an exception to the rule, everyone picks and chooses what to believe no matter what religion they're in. Everyone's oh-so-important views and beliefs can be challenged and altered when the need calls for it. A strict pro-lifer will consider abortion for her 12 year old daughter who was a vitcim of family rape if the pregnancy poses a life threat to one or both of the children. A devote preacher of 50 years may come to accept the evolutionary theory if someone takes the time to teach him and show him that this is not about denying the existance of god, but rather trying to understand how this all happened, why things are the way they are without using the fall back "because god wanted it that way" b.s. A family who is against the death penalty may scream for one when a loved one is brutally murdered...the list goes on and on. Nothing is black and white. Nothing is that simple. Remember, if god is omnipotent then he made lucifer with the full knowledge and intent of him becoming the devil. he created adam and eve and the tree of knowledge knowing that she would eat from it and summarily be cast aside. if god is omnipotent than there is no such thing as free will. as long as someone knows what you're going to do, when you do it and how you're going to do it than free will is a lie. just like the cake. ^_^

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Orange Juce Jones Dec 09, 2009

"The work is different because the UN workers are not expecting to go to heaven. They see this work as important to help their fellow man and not for some misguided reward in the after life like the missionaries."


I don't know if you are an Atheist or not I just disagree with the comment you made. I am not a missionary but the way I see and understand it is that they do not do this work for the reward of going to heaven but rather to help people who need it. There is no ulterior motive of pushing their religion down other people's throats or at least I hope not. You are correct in a way because there are some religious people out there who do good deeds just because they think that it will get them into heaven. These people will not go to heaven unless they realize the error of their thinking and follow their faith correctly. I think the purpose of most of the missionary work is to:

A. Take care of the fellow man in need.

B. Use the opportunity to share your beliefs with your fellow man.(Not force it upon them. Share only with those who wish to be shared with.)

This is the way that I view it. You may argue that point B is exactly what you're saying in your first comment but I guess it's all on how you interpret it. If I met you in the street and I decided I wanted to help you because you looked down on your luck, I would do so without thought of a reward. If I chose to spend time with you daily to help you and I noticed after a while that you didn't really seem to have a faith or religion I would ask you to share in mine. If you said no then I would not stop helping you and I would not try to force my religion on you. I would however ask why and ask that you at least give me a chance to explain to you my viewpoint. After that I would leave it alone. The Bible tells us that we should go out and fellowship with our brethren and spread the word of God. This to me means exactly what I just described with my scenario. I help people because I feel like it not because I think it will get me into heaven. I find that when talking on the subject of religion one cannot generalize every person of a particular religion or belief because it always leaves room for an argument. I would like to continue this conversation away from this site if you are interested.

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Orange Juce Jones Dec 09, 2009

"The work is different because the UN workers are not expecting to go to heaven. They see this work as important to help their fellow man and not for some misguided reward in the after life like the missionaries."


I don't know if you are an Atheist or not I just disagree with the comment you made. I am not a missionary but the way I see and understand it is that they do not do this work for the reward of going to heaven but rather to help people who need it. There is no ulterior motive of pushing their religion down other people's throats or at least I hope not. You are correct in a way because there are some religious people out there who do good deeds just because they think that it will get them into heaven. These people will not go to heaven unless they realize the error of their thinking and follow their faith correctly. I think the purpose of most of the missionary work is to:

A. Take care of the fellow man in need.

B. Use the opportunity to share your beliefs with your fellow man.(Not force it upon them. Share only with those who wish to be shared with.)

This is the way that I view it. You may argue that point B is exactly what you're saying in your first comment but I guess it's all on how you interpret it. If I met you in the street and I decided I wanted to help you because you looked down on your luck, I would do so without thought of a reward. If I chose to spend time with you daily to help you and I noticed after a while that you didn't really seem to have a faith or religion I would ask you to share in mine. If you said no then I would not stop helping you and I would not try to force my religion on you. I would however ask why and ask that you at least give me a chance to explain to you my viewpoint. After that I would leave it alone. The Bible tells us that we should go out and fellowship with our brethren and spread the word of God. This to me means exactly what I just described with my scenario. I help people because I feel like it not because I think it will get me into heaven. I find that when talking on the subject of religion one cannot generalize every person of a particular religion or belief because it always leaves room for an argument. I would like to continue this conversation away from this site if you are interested.

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Thomas May 02, 2010

First, the Trinity can be compared to humans. There is your physical presence, your cognitive abilities, and you feelings. Body (Jesus), Mind (God the Father), Spirit (Holy Spirit). Secondly, I can tell that science is really advancing mankind. I mean GTA is totally a sign of forward motion, and there was a study done that proved that men like hot women. Phew, however does science do it. Finding all of the new viruses, and missile designs, and ways to enjoy sex with machines instead of other humans, genius! Science is obviously what is keeping us on top of the heap. Of course we have to take the good with the bad, the cures, the life support, medical techniques, prosthesis, etc. Science has indeed done a lot to move humanity forward, but don't you dare say that those were all invented by atheists. There are Christian nurses and doctors who practice all of these skills, and have you thought about what could be done with the money spent on the Large Hadron Supercollider? The giant track built, by the world half in France and half in Switzerland, for the sole purpose of seeing whether they can prove the big bang theory or kill us all with tiny blackholes in the attempt. The cost, of just building it, was around 6 Billion Dollars? Do you see religious people blowing that much money on a tower so that we can reach Heaven? Or blowing it all on a really nice Baptist potluck, where people can meet and greet and talk about there troubles with their fellow Christians, that not only attend the church but they live in the area?

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Scott Klarr May 03, 2010

>> There is your physical presence, your cognitive abilities, and you feelings. Body (Jesus), Mind (God the Father), Spirit (Holy Spirit).

The only problem is that our mind is part of our body, and there is no evidence to even suggest we have a "spirit" or soul.

>> There are Christian nurses and doctors who practice all of these skills, and have you thought about what could be done with the money spent on the Large Hadron Supercollider?... Do you see religious people blowing that much money on a tower so that we can reach Heaven?

You're joking right? There are churches built on pretty much every fucking street corner in America. I can drive 10 blocks and see 15 churches. Do you have ANY idea how much money churches gather (TAX FREE TOO!) and waste on building shit that does nothing for humanity? Giant crosses, statues, new buildings, etc. Do you have any idea how much money has been poured into the Vatican?

You seem to have a very misguided understanding of what science is for and what affect it has on the progression of society. You think the LHC is "just to prove the big bang theory"? No, it is going to help uncover some unknown details about the fundamentals of physics that will help the advancement of all sorts of technologies, namely new kinds of computers that will have dramatic impact in many fields including medical.

You apparently think that any money spent researching is wasted, but do you ever stop to realise how much research was required to build the foundations of the life you enjoy every day? Do you have ANY idea how much scientific knowledge has been hammered out slowly and at great expensive so that you can sit down at a computer and broadcast your ignorance all across the world with a click of the button? When you get in your car and drive to the hospital to get an injury fixed, you are relying on hundreds of years of research that, had you been there along the way when the first research was going on, you'd probably complain about "how much a waste of money all this pointless stuff is."

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Thomas May 27, 2010

First of all, research is very important, when you are researching productive, beneficial things, like say stem-cells. Second, The LHC has been built for the following reasons,
1) To discover what mass is and how mass came from particle that previously were mass-less
2) To figure out what the majority of the universe is made of
3) To discover why antimatter is no longer in existence
4) To discover what the universe was like seconds after the Big Bang
5) To discover if there are other dimensions
This all came from the European Organization for Nuclear Research at, http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/lhc/WhyLHC-en.html
You may call me ignorant if you wish, for the question I am about to ask.
"....it is going to help uncover some unknown details about the fundamentals of physics that will help the advancement of all sorts of technologies, namely new kinds of computers that will have dramatic impact in many fields including medical."
How? I might be an idiot for not being able to see where this new computer and medical technology comes from, but I am eager to learn, so could you explain it to me?

P.S. I stop and wonder every day about all of the lives, resources, and time that were invested to make my current life what it is. I try to think of ways not to squander the life I have been given, or take for granted the luxuries given to me. And for someone that is so retrospective, you sure have a funny way of respecting the points of view that got us here. Do you ever wonder how many people died for their beliefs, fictitious or real, creating this country? No matter what science can put up, and I am not saying that science is evil, people will always be willing to die for what they truly believe in.

P.P.S. If you are going to chew me out, could you use correct grammar and less profanity in your tirades.

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Redalert Apr 12, 2009

"Nope. Not alien to me at all. I grew up in a religious environment and was actually always helped by other religious people because, unfortunately, we didn't have the means."

Do you happen to have any scientific means able to read the heart of those religious people that you seemed inclined to construe their actions as reward motivated and not out of sincere compassion and love?

"However, some of those who helped us were not religious at all. And, let me explain this to you in the clearest way possible: I do not believe in a higher power and I do not believe in an after life; therefore, I am expecting no sort of reward when I die, or during my time on earth, but I still continue to help others. Just so you know, you don't have to grow up in a "religious environment" to be "nurtured and love[d]"-my nephew is extremely loved by an atheist mom, uncles, and aunt every single day of his life and the result is an incredibly kind-hearted, funny, witty, and exceptionally intelligent (partly because he's not wasting his time with religion) eleven-year-old boy.Nope. Not alien to me at all. I grew up in a religious environment and was actually always helped by other religious people because, unfortunately, we didn't have the means. However, some of those who helped us were not religious at all. And, let me explain this to you in the clearest way possible: I do not believe in a higher power and I do not believe in an after life; therefore, I am expecting no sort of reward when I die, or during my time on earth, but I still continue to help others. Just so you know, you don't have to grow up in a "religious environment" to be "nurtured and love[d]"-my nephew is extremely loved by an atheist mom, uncles, and aunt every single day of his life and the result is an incredibly kind-hearted, funny, witty, and exceptionally intelligent (partly because he's not wasting his time with religion) eleven-year-old boy."

I wish you can satisfy his curiosity when your nephew asked where we all came from, justifying the mathematical probability that all what we see living now first came from non living.

"P.S. Andrea Yates' five children were very nurtured and loved in their religious home. So religious, she put God before all five of them."

Andrea Yates is a disturbed woman and what she did is not because of her belief in God, not because she grew up in religious environment but because she is mentally disturbed. Nobody here I think can claim religion taught her to kill innocent children.

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S reply Apr 12, 2009

"Do you happen to have any scientific means able to read the heart of those religious people that you seemed inclined to construe their actions as reward motivated and not out of sincere compassion and love?"

And do you have any religious means to explain why the non-religious do good for others? Listen, I'm not saying that all religious people help others because of religion, but the first comment that I replied to was stating just that. I'm just saying that people shouldn't need religion as the reason for helping and giving to the world. And by the way, it is psychologically proven that people help others for a selfish internal satisfaction- which in turn is rewarding for both sides.

"I wish you can satisfy his curiosity when your nephew asked where we all came from, justifying the mathematical probability that all what we see living now first came from non living."

My nephew knows all versions of creation and scientific explanations for life (probably better than most people do); he simply chose the one that made the most sense, the one that continues to expand, explore, and make breakthroughs. He stopped believing in Santa Claus a few years back (to partly relate back to this page).

P.S. The apple doesn't far from the tree.
Jepthah sacrifices his only daughter because he gave his "word to God," and Abraham almost sacrifices his son to prove his dedication to God, and not to mention Jesus who sacrifices himself. But since those are in the Bible, of course they're not disturbing.

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TheScientist Oct 08, 2009

once again-- fellow atheist here.

i dont believe in god much as the next guy but that doesn't mean we have to be ignorant about it. there are several fundemental flaws in some of the stuff you are saying:

" In fact, without religion, everyone would be an atheist. Sorry if that's too true."


without religion the term atheist would have no meaning. i think that douglass adams described it best with his story about the sky over the planet Krikkit. The sky (religion/atheism/where did we come from?) was there, yes, but it had no imact on the daily lives of the planets inhabitants and therefor had no significant meaning.

"We don't hate, we don't discriminate, we prefer to push all beliefs and emotions to the side,and judge whether or not an idea is logical."

and yet you are hating on religion with this post. you are talking down to them as if they haven't the mental capacity to for intelligent thought. Lots of good, scientific and philisophical advancement has com from religion. When Descartes famously said "Cogito ergo sum" he started off trying to prove the existance of god. many of the researchers at the LHC are looking for the "God" particle. being religious doesn't presuppose ignorance.

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, just cause something as old as time itself whispers some demanding requests at VOID, DOES NOT mean that that law is broken."

i'm not actually sure what you're trying to get at here, because your "proof" switches ideals half-way thought. in any event the statistical probability that all the matter in the universe collapsed to roughly the size of a house and then exploded is neglidgibly different from the probability that a hyper-intelligent being suddenly happened and then shapped the universe.

reigion says that from nothing came god. atheists say from nothing came everything. its the same philosophy with different words.

---------

both sides have some great arguments from great posters as well as some not so great aruments from not so great posters.

Peace

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Scott Klarr Dec 01, 2008

Lol, first off, a theist is someone who believes in god. You just addressed all the believers. Learn your vocabulary.

I use to be a Christian. I know your state of mind first hand and I truly feel sorry for you. Perhaps someday you will wise up and stop wasting away the only life you get: this one.

The old argument of irreducible complex is nothing but ignorant speculation that has been refuted more times than the number of verses in the bible. If an eye has no use at a simpler state, then why do we find simpler states all through nature that all give benefit to the particular animal whom has it?

Do some research on morals and behavior (the murder/rape/hate-laden bible does not count as a source of moral guidance). Our morals and behavior are not something divine or else no human would ever murder. Moral is a phenomenon that evolved alongside social advances that allows animals to work together to create a synergy thus making each individual's life span gain the advantage over surviving alone. The mere fact that there are good atheists and not a "worldwide atheist suicide party" proves that morals do not come from having invisible friends. IF you are truly interested in learning the facts (I doubt it), you can start with studying biopsychology and the game theory.

Your stupidity and ignorance shine through your words. Get an education before claiming that everything you personally don't understand is God unless you like people with sense laughing at you.

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Christian Mar 29, 2010

hate laden?

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Try Again. Apr 08, 2009

Redalert, you never learned the whole concept of giving up when you're so far behind that the race ended a week before you walked up to the starting gate.

"You living and breathing is a proof that God exists. If you hate the idea then convince your best atheist scientist to create even a simple living organism from basic building blocks of life."

No, me living and breathing is a proof that my father had sex with my mother during her menstrual cycle and I was the fastest swimmer. C'mon now, do we have to really have an argument that humans beget other humans in this day in age? Even by returning to the "God created man" argument, God would have only created two people: they then would have had children that intermarried, and we would all be like the Hapsburgs in the late 19th century: inbred, sterile defect ridden people. The fact that nearly every human being on Earth has a unique genetic code speaks volumes into what I think of the theory of there being two universal parents to the ENTIRE human race.

"Duh, Religious people must be good person because they also think it's their purpose and nature."

What if you're religion is modern Satanism, or a religion that believes that by inflicting pain upon others you become closer to your god? Religions don't make people good, for the last time. Religions are a belief structure. People decide whether they are "good" or "evil" based on the decisions they make; there have been plenty of religious people that have committed horrible atrocities, and plenty of atheists that would be considered "saints" if they had simply prescribed to a religious model.

Stop spouting off the crap you learned in your confirmation class as dogma, and start actually having an original thought on the subject. Once you do, you might care a little less about people just agreeing with you and more about why other people don't prescribe to your beliefs in the first place.


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Jeffersonite Dec 01, 2008

"Scott K", You sir, may think I am the stupid and ignorant one. It does not surprise me in the least. Go ahead and laugh to your hearts content and think of yourself as the enlightened sensible one. I know precisely what theist means. I separated the two in order to stress the A. As you may know, prefacing with the letter a means without, lacking, against. Learning the facts has absolutely nothing to do theories of any kind, especially not the biopsychological or game kind. No one , except you, said anything about eyes at a simpler state. Each creature has the eyes, or lack of them, that God gave them to fulfill the station said creature was created for. The Holy Bible speaks to us of all manner of good and bad as it must to teach us how to live and how not to. That you once called yourself a Christian, (thanks for properly capitalizing it), doesn't make you one. The FACTS are,in spite of whatever you were taught, a person must be born again of the spirit and have an intimate personal relationship with the Christ, Lord Jesus, to be a Christian. It means caring nothing for this world. It means caring only for the Kingdom of God and taking the message of His grace and love to the lost, like you. I will pray that somewhere, sometime before it is too late, someone will lead you to the Lord. You will be welcomed into His Kingdom and all the host of heaven will rejoice when you surrender you life to the One that paid the price for your sin. Without a life of sin, we would have no witness of the grace of Lord Jesus. I was once a wicked God hater, so I know what you are going through and I feel sorry for you. I do pray that you will wise up and stop wasting the time you have in this life so that you may fulfill your purpose for existence and serve your Creator. God bless you and keep you. J

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Scott Klarr Dec 02, 2008

Give me one bit of evidence that shows that the Christian god is any more real than Thor. Then, if there is some way to prove that the god is in fact the Christian God, then how do you decide which denomination of worship is right? Many denominations believe that other denominations are going to Hell. Let me also ask you this, how many holy texts did you fully read before you claimed that Christianity was right?

"Take some time and consider the marvelous eyeball. What a splendid accident that was, huh?"
That is the standard IC argument of "its too complex to have not been designed in its current state." Well, nature proves that is simply not the case. Everything that is complex can be broken down into simpler but still beneficial states.

"The Holy Bible speaks to us of all manner of good and bad as it must to teach us how to live and how not to"
Have you actually READ the bible? It is disgusting. Your god is a vile and monstrous being. According to your bible, It would be a good deed - that actually used to be required - for me to be stoned to death for simply writing this message. Yeah, that is REAL good moral guidance! Your God is a lovely guy so covered in blood. Lets not forget that he damned all of human species to live pain-filled lives before dying all because Eve ate an apple. Someone needs to take some anger management classes!

BTW, Yes I used to be a "real" Christian, and because I have since committed the only unforgivable sin, it doesn't matter if I spend every second of every minutes of the rest of my live worshiping your make believe friend, I would still be punished and tortured for all eternity in fire. Boy, your god sure does know how to show his love. "You do not live the way I want with no evidence of my existence in a measly 50-100 years, then I am going to make you burn alive for ALL OF ETERNITY!!" Even if that god was real, he is not the type of being I would want to worship or consider righteous. By your very support of such monstrosity makes you a horrible person, IMO especially if you think that you would be compelled to murder and rape if you found out God was not real.

I'm a good person because Its the right thing to do, not because I'm afraid of eternal punishment. Someone who is good ONLY because of fear is not a good person no matter what kind of act they put on.

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Anti-Chris Oct 24, 2009

"all hail the never ignorant, everyone else is stupid godless ones. Your assumptions are false. No one thinks for me! I don't follow man, I lead man. You have no clue concerning the society I grew up in and I am not an animal of any kind. Please do remember to beg God to allow me to touch your desert dry tongue with a half drop of water after several millennium. Sorry, but as with Lazurus, the void will make such kindness impossible for you. Go on, though. Keep believing that you are far too wise for the Deity named Jehovah to exist. Continue to think there is no justice in His law. Call me and those like me ignorant fools. Hey, you might even consider tattooing 666 on your foreheads and taking up arms to massacre us in the name of no god justice. And calling yourselves wise, you became fools. I pray for mercy on you and those like you in God's love. Bless you. May you find Jesus and never want for anything. PEACE, LOVE, and AMEN."

bwahahahahaahahah! Jehovah!? 666!? oh no! Christians are so ignorant and into their own clique yes I said clique that they even had to bash on math and numerology. A number is even considered evil. all fear the number omfjesus!!!

once idiots like you destroy the world and bring upon your own "apocalypse" I'll make sure i'm alive so I can preach about dungeons and dragons and make everyone believe that the DM is the all powerful being who controls everything, then make everyone roll a die for their entire lives and so on and so forth bwahaha.

seriously jehovajeff, go to walmart, buy a bunch of crap in bulk, support your hate mongering society of logic denying ignoramuses, and then enjoy your afterlife of fairies, and magical unicorns. Oh btw when you get there tell santa he's a dick and I wanted a bike back in the day not clothes

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Spyrl 9 Feb 16, 2009

It is amazing how much fighting there is on the topic of religion, (both here and throughout history). Especially when a said religion claims to be one of universal love. If a deity is truly benevolant and "full of love", how much do you really believe (s)he would approve of all the hate and violence that is projected at those of differing DETAILS of faith?
Faith is a beautiful thing, it is healthy to believe in something -and can give meaning to one's life. But blind faith is ignorant (the same could be said for blind lack of faith). Why would God give us the gifts of reason and contemplation if we are not meant to use them. We Should question our faiths. Find what what truly does hold meaning to us and find a belief that best applies to us. We all have lived different lives and have had different experiences and thoughts. It makes sense that the details of what we hold faith in would differ.
If you are a good person doing good things, than you believe in the same thing as myself -the details of those beliefs just may differ. And it is these details that all of the fighting is about. It is understandable to want to share what has brought you joy, but you shouldn't push your beliefs onto another. And, on the same note, you should not let beliefs be pushed on you. Better to truly believe in something and be unpopular than only half believe something to "fit in". Faith should be something we find comfort, and happiness in. Not something forced fed to us.

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Redalert Apr 10, 2009

"Santa is irrelevant. But why not Thor? Why not the Olympians? Why not Allah? Why not one or several other(s) of the multitudes of gods that have appeared throughout history? Because they're ridiculous? More ridiculous than Christianity?"

There are misled theists who worship false gods and proving all of these divine beings to be true is not the issue. These people are just fulfilling their yearning and inclination toward the mystical and spiritual as manifestations of what God ideally created us to be.

"Well, they could be aware, so let's not rule that out. I would like to ask, though, if by stating "your moral compass," (as opposed to "our", perhaps) you intend to 'lower' atheists to the cognitive level of a goose? I don't intend to be horribly touchy. I merely ask to learn."

Both atheist and theist acknowledge and are aware of the constructive drive, the moral compass though they differ in meaning.

"I'd also like to add that humans are a social species, so the interest of doing good for other humans is probably the manifestation of personal interest in gaining connections or perhaps "taking one for the team". There is natural empathy and compassion. Biologically, this makes sense, or else, as a social species, we likely would have disintegrated. But we still don't need a god to follow natural inclination."

I believe you look at man at the base levels, man is more than that if you look more deeply. There are things imprinted in man that supersedes, defies mere self preservation, self aggrandizement and most can be seen on the theist side, stuff though that atheist may see as stupid. The ultimate goal of religion for me is to detach himself from these base needs of specie prosperity and propagation.

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ely Apr 08, 2009

one does not need God or Gods to have a sense of morality and understand the difference between right and wrong.

philosophy and ethics are tools that try to determine our place in this natural world, how best to treat other humans, animals, and the world in general. these sciences do not need a divine source, nor do they exclude a divine source.

atheists, agnostics, and the religious all have the same opportunities to cause "evil" in this world. all have the opportunity to view their dogma as more correct than another's dogma and decide to do the "right thing" and wipe it from existence. pagans v. christians, christians v. everyone else, jews v. islam, islam v. everyone else, etc.

in fact, with the prospect of nothing after this life it is more of an incentive to create, to do good, to do right towards all the inhabitants of this planet. an atheist wouldn't have the crutch of being able to say "i'm sorry, please forgive me father" after buggering that poor child or lopping off some "infidel"'s head and then still getting into heaven (or bettering his chances)

atheists need to do what is RIGHT; now, in THIS lifetime, because it is all that they have. No crutches, no excuses, no "God made me kill my son because he's the anti-christ" bull shite.

i am an agnostic, not atheist. not christian, nor any other -ian. I believe in a divine spark that imbued the universe with life and we are to work with that life to make it better. I don't need a named God to tell me that.

My version of Intelligent Design... The Divine _whatever_ spent 6 "days" in getting all the programming setup, all the if, then, else statements written, and quite a bit of self-regulating code to tweak things on the way. Getting that whole framework setup and then hitting the Big Bang button and see what happens. Science is the study of that work (the Vatican has a very good science program to study God's creation from a science and a religious aspect)

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Scott S. Mar 20, 2009

I have faced the same struggle as many of the people who have posted here, trying to wrap my head around the concept of death. I think that that is what it comes down to. Try to think about the end of your consciousness... imagine not thinking anymore. It is impossible for us to do. Yes, you can sit on your couch and veg out on crap tv, while not having any significant heigher level thought processes... but you can't shut it off. You can merely distract yourself. I have read several of the holy texts out there, to include; the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Quran. I have met both virtuous and wicked people in each of the associated religions, and wicked and virtuous Atheists and Agnostics. The ability to commit offenses against another person exists in all of us. Whether that be because of evil placed within us by the devil, that whisper in your ear if you will... or the lack of divine intervention in our decision making processes, I think it is impossible to know.

I, as you may have guessed, consider myself an Agnostic. I pussy position by some peoples view. Cast your stones, I shall forgive your trespasses. Agnostics sit on the fence between the theists and atheists.

Websters defines an Agnostic as someone who does not deny the existence of God, but rather the possibility of knowing Him (Her/It).

That is me in a nut shell. I can't fathom the end of my consciousness, nor can I fathom that anyone has gotten in right either. If you hear a synic talk about Christianity, it sounds insane... as insane as Scientology to not just Christians but everyone.

For those of you who came here and said ignorant things baout just shutting up and letting people think and do what they want, (yes I am about to get slightly hostile) are you out of your ever loving mind? Much in the same way that 'all it takes for evil to triumph over good, is for good men to do nothing', all it takes for subjugation ot triumph over freedom, is for opposite minded people to say nothing. This is a healthy discussion. A necessary one as well. Most of the world beleives in some form of higher being, and of that majority, most of them want us all to be governed by the tenants of their various religions. Look at the fanatics in the Middle East, the lengths they go to in order to have a country governed by Sharia law. Look at the debate in the U.S. over Gay marriage, abortion, creationism vs evolution being taught in schools, school prayers, In God we trust on our money... the list goes on and on, and it affects each one of us in our daily lives.

Morality is relative to our socialization process. What we consider socially and morally reprehensable in America is not the same as, well lets say a Ugandan or Congolese 'rebel'. Raping of women is a hobby that receives little to no criticism by ones peers in those circles. That is how they were brought up. Read up on the affects of ones socialition process on ones actions.

To address some other comments made here;

1) though it is a valid point about stoning your fiancee, don't reduce yourself to using obvious extreme arguements in lieu of an intellectual one. No one is going to convince someone else to shut up or give up their point of view on this site.

2) whoever it was that made the comment about not being here for this life, but for the next. You are required by your faith to give up all things worldly, this includes your car, house, clothes on your back, and all of the money in your bank account. In order to live properly by this, you have to stop eating, sleeping, or anything else that would distract you form 'spreading the good word'. Because that is what you believe God asks of you. So, what was the last movie you saw in the theatre? Why were you not out spreading the word now? Why have you spent the past five minutes reading my post on this blog.

Now, my father who is a very evangelical Christian always poses the question of, 'If Christianity turns out ot be wrong, but you led your life according to its values, what harm has been done?' The well articulated arguement for living by a set code of morality. Not a lot of harm I always have to agree. However, in the process, you give up that truth seeking part of yourself, and allow whoever is in control of the religion to control your thoughts. Look of Mormonism. It has done a fantastic job of anticipating turns in the moral majority, and dictating the behavior of its believers for the past century or so. When they had a steady base, they turned form polygamy in order to appeal to the masses. They were ahead of society, but right on target with scientists, about preaching of the dangers of tobacco, alchohol, and caffeine. When the church started, they were not as straight laced as they appear to be now. As science was proving it was bad for you, the church took it as a prompt, and a prophecy was revealed to not use these things. It did take them a bit longer to catch on to the whole civil rights thing, with not allowing blacks to hold their priesthood until the '80's, but aside from that, not a bad track record or dictating behavior.

This is what many Christians, Muslims, Catholics etc... want for all of us. If someone does not agree with the tenants by which you live your life, they should not sit quietly by while you attempt to ammend the constitution to support your beliefs. That would be as wrong as those who beleive Gay marriage is a disgrace to the sanctity of the union not saying anything... (although one is reminded to not cast stones, or make claims to know Gods wishes, and perhaps let God go ahead and decide if he wants to honor that union or not on his own terms. Kinda makes sense to just leave that one alone... unless you are claiming to know what exactly God is thinking right now about the whole thing. Good luck not getting judged yourself for that one).

I digress,

My point is this, a) consider Agnosticism b) continue the debates, but in an intellectual manner that the gravity of the discussion deserves
and c) challenge yourself. So many people hate out of fear. Christians, or rather all theists, far too often try to shut people in order to not have to think about or confront their own beliefs. If what you beleive is trully correct, don't be afraid to listen to and think about the other side of the arguement. Not just for ammunition or a way to spin and convert, but for the actual merit of the view point.

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Jeff Apr 12, 2009

Your comments are reasonable. Agnosticism is an intellectually honest position so long as one continues to explore the underlying issues of our existence in an effort to figure out what one believes is true.

I would also add that an agnostic should evaluate each belief system he or she thinks worthy of consideration and discard those that seem irrational. In doing so, I would also suggest that one disregard the behavior of some of the extreme practitioners of each belief system because those practitioners are usually not representative of the belief systems themselves (The Inquisition is not a justification for rejecting Christianity; Mao and Pol Pot are not justifications for rejecting atheism).

If you evaluate your own beliefs/understanding with an open mind when considering the claims of a given religion or of atheism you may find that your agnosticism will fade, to be replaced with an affirmative belief system / understanding. But in my humble opinion listening to the rants of rabid theists and rabid atheists is pointless.

There is a reason that moderate, intelligent people come to opposite conclusions about God. For example, there are prominent contemporary scientists who are theists, among them Francis Collins (a former atheist and head of the Human Genome Project); John Polkinghorne (Physicist and priest); Paul Davies (Physicist and cosmologist at Arizona State University. He chairs the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) postdetection committee) for starters. Other scientists are atheists. Among them, Richard Dawkins (Evolutionary biologist) and Carl Sagan (astronomer). Read them all. Evaluate them all. Make up your own mind what seems most plausible.

Listening to an atheist ranting about what God is or isn't or who Jesus is or isn't is no more valid than listening to a fundamentalist Christian bashing evolution. Each is a partisan, locked into his or her point of view and neither is thoughtfully listening to the other. The uproar is deafening.

Your father has made his choice and he is comfortable with the consequences of that choice. You get your turn to do the same. So did I. Like you, I was once an agnostic, a position that I found troubling because it does not admit to an answer. I've read much, studied much, and I am comfortable with my belief system / understanding. I still read constantly (both sides of the argument) because I am not afraid of ideas, including those I ultimately discard. The consequences for my life are mine. It is the same for all of us.

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BoredAfterReadingThis Apr 08, 2009

yawn yawn yawn

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WhyIsThisAnIssue Apr 08, 2009

"...you follow because you are too ignorant to lead, and that is why I and all Athiest are better than you, we think for ourselves, you let others do the thinking for you." Wow. Powerful words. Spoken like a true believer. Turning his hate on those who do not follow his ways. Sounds a lot like a religion to me. And it seems, like in all religions, that you have the extremists who give the rest a bad name.
You Athiests throw stones at the Christians only because there's a little, tiny, shred of doubt in your mind that "What if i'm wrong?". None of us are going to know if we're right or wrong about our personal beliefs until the end. And beliefs are personal. And very much like opinions if you know the reference. Why not each of us have our belief and go about being the good person we each want and need to be. Or is it more important to stand around in groups talking smack about the other guy and feeding off the group dynamic? Maybe work yourself into a lather? Nothing good comes from debating politics or religion. If you're ready to find God, you will. If not, so be it.
I for one refuse to believe that all of this was a string of random events that put us here and that we evolved up from mud. The world, the universe is too grand to be a coincidence. If you feel that you should think so little of yourself and us as a species, then whatever blows your hair back. You should find some solice in the approaching darkness of your pending non-existance as nothing follows. Me, I believe that this is not the end, but just one step on the path to eternity.

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Eric (Lord of death and the Underworld) S Apr 08, 2009

OMG!!! Reading this bickering is about as hard as believing in god (yes, I'm leaning to the atheist side in this). A lot of these posters are funny and clever and they made me laugh. Mostly creationist, pro-religion etc posters just aren't very funny (sorry it's just the truth, they are usually kinda lame and if you disagree then you're just being difficult). The point is that "atheism" is really just another religious view when argued in such a way as it is here! Albeit the lack of holding a god as omnipotent and all knowing, but a religious view all the same. A true "atheist" if you want to call it that needs not argue their stance at all since THERE IS NO STANCE TO ARGUE!!! I have no time to worry about bibles, churches and how to properly behave. I treat people well, I am thoughtful of the universe as it is the most wondrous and exciting thing beyond our imaginations and I keep an open mind to anything I hear/read/see.

I really cannot say (nor can anyone on alive, on this earth) what happens after death and where (if anywhere but the ground or a little jar) we go. If I should find myself standing in front of some massive golden gates after my demise, faced with a list of my lifelong sins I shall eat my words then and start praying.

Point is, there's not enough time on earth to worry about what everyone else is thinking. If you believe there is a god and heaven and eyeballs, fingernails and juji-fruits were designed by god then by all means go right ahead. If you want to believe we are a random and common occurance throughout the universe then you should pursue that. As long as your beliefs are not forced upon others and you don't demand others go out of their way to respect them there should really be no problems.

btw, there is no god.

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pinky214 Apr 08, 2009

Something I read somewhere:

It's natural to think that living things must be the handiwork of a designer. But it was also natural to think that the sun went around the earth. Overcoming naive impressions to figure out how things really work is one of humanity's highest callings.
Our own bodies are riddled with quirks that no competent engineer would have planned but that disclose a history of trial-and-error tinkering: a retina installed backward, a seminal duct that hooks over the ureter like a garden hose snagged on a tree, goose bumps that uselessly try to warm us by fluffing up long-gone fur.
The moral design of nature is as bungled as its engineering design. What twisted sadist would have invented a parasite that blinds millions of people or a gene that covers babies with excruciating blisters? To adapt a Yiddish expression about God: If an intelligent designer lived on Earth, people would break his windows.
The theory of natural selection explains life as we find it, with all its quirks and tragedies. We can prove mathematically that it is capable of producing adaptive life forms and track it in computer simulations, lab experiments and real ecosystems. It doesn't pretend to solve one mystery (the origin of complex life) by slipping in another (the origin of a complex designer).
Many people who accept evolution still feel that a belief in God is necessary to give life meaning and to justify morality. But that is exactly backward. In practice, religion has given us stonings, inquisitions and 9/11. Morality comes from a commitment to treat others as we wish to be treated, which follows from the realization that none of us is the sole occupant of the universe. Like physical evolution, it does not require a white-coated technician in the sky.
-STEVEN PINKER

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Marc Smith Apr 08, 2009

thank you =D

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Ian Apr 08, 2009

I have to agree with what Scott K said on Dec 13th - if god suddenly showed up i'd have to acknowledged he existed, but i dont think i'd follow him. The god of the bible is not a very nice god. He strikes me more a psychotic petulant child.

For those of you that believe in god let me ask you this - can god lie? He's all powerful right? How do you know he didn't lie to you about any of this? Why would any being that's so loving require us to bow down and worship him or suffer for all eternity? Use your brain for a minute - does that really sound like anything that's all loving?

How do you know religion isn't a test? Maybe there is a god - maybe the bible is even his words. How do you know it's not simply a test to see who is willing to defy the illogical and accept the rational? You cant prove it's not a test since you believe god is all powerful and you cant really know his mind. So maybe all the major religions are just his way of weeding out the people who have evolved to the next level - and everyone else maybe gets to go around the merry go round again until they get it right.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me then believing the god of the bible is a good god and someone worth worshiping.

Personally i am agnostic, not athiest. You can neither prove or disprove gods existence. So why bother wasting time on him/her/it? My view is if being a generally good person (helping my friends/family, being generally nice to other people and in general trying to leave the world a little better off then it was ) is not good enough for a god to accept me, then he's really not worth wasting any time on.

If you want to believe someone created all of this - fine. I can understand that and maybe even respect it, even if i dont believe in that myself. But i will not respect anyone who thinks the god of the bible is worth worshipping. You could have someone run around and murder and rape a 1000 people but on his death bed say he's sorry and he gets into heaven, whereas i can run around and help a 1000 people but still refuse to believe, so i should suffer forever? And you think that's a system you should believe in and worship? No - i will not respect that.

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Evan Apr 08, 2009

"why waste all your time arguing with each other trying to win this long standing argument"
Why? Because, if the way we teach our children and progress as a society is dependent on Christian ideas that evolution is a crock and that in fact there is no need to explain what we see (as we can always just say "God did it" if we cant figure it out) then how can progress possibly be made? The only way we progress is by taking something and analyzing it. Take the light bulb for example. A great invention, i think everyone agrees. Would the light bulb have been invented if no one ever considered that maybe "the candle isn't the best way to produce light". And once the light bulb was invented did we just stop trying to improve and make it better? What could possibly be done to such a perfect invention? Well we could use more than 25% of the energy to make light for starters (thus the invention of fluorescent light bulb). Will we stop there in improving this idea? Certainly not. Then why, i must ask you, should we not challenge things so that they work better, are more efficient and further progress rather than restrain it? Just as sun gods and gods of harvest were analyzed and revamped to fit with knowledge, so should the modern religions. I'm not just talking Christianity here, but all religions, religions that lead to things like terrorist attacks, religions that lead to not allowing things like stem cell research, ones that prevent freedom, nearly every religion in fact could stand to be re-evaluated. So that is my answer to why we must argue this (although it would be in the best interest of everyone to keep it civil).
I myself am not an atheist. The best way to describe me would be to say that i am an agnostic. I have gone to a catholic/Christian school my entire life and i have learned in my own time about other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, etc. (I have learned at least some about all the "major" religions) Through this study i realize that perhaps everyone worshiping/believing in the same thing. Whether you believe in one god, two, or seven, you are using these gods as a way to explain the unknown. So really you believe in explanations. Why then should you not, instead of creating a puzzle piece to fill in the gap, go find the puzzle piece? Atheists believe that they can find all the answers through science, theists believe that they can find all the answers in God. We all have to have faith in something, why not in what can progress us all as human beings rather than something that slows our progress.

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drew clark Apr 08, 2009

To be honest I think both religion and science can have the same positive and negative effects on people and society. On one hand we have religion: each one of them gives people something to believe in, because religion knows that this factor will keep us humans going somehow. It's inevitable, religious or atheist, that at some point we ask ourselves the Big Questions: "why are we here? where will we go? how did we get here? etc....

these questions drive us, make us live and learn. Life is also full of grief at times and most religious books are just full of common sense, giving us indications on how to lead a life the best way possible for us and those around us. Don't steal, don't lie, don't hurt, forgive, understand even when you think it's wrong.... these rules work. The problem with religion is that a bunch of fanatics have taken advantage of the above mentioned questions and played with peoples faith, specially when they were feeling the most vulnerable.... when they were looking around themselves asking: "what the f***ed happened and why?". In those moments you'll be certain to believe anything that gives you hope that life isn't so shit after all.

on the other hand you have atheism. the rejection of an existence of any form of God, or deity. Fair enough. I'm very much like St. Thomas, I believe in what I see or even more what I touch. and I have to say I'm very happy with that. Travel around the world and what you see and hear and feel can be extremely beautiful and sublime to not need a God to believe that life can be beautiful and changes for our well being can be done. I think that lacking faith in a God is easily done and can lead to a much freer life, therefore a life bound to develop and evolve more than one that isn't. Where I think a problem lies, is that most atheists, having chosen or just simply not believing in God, find that science and technology are our solutions. Science will lead us to space, science will give us great technology... But to what use?

Science spends so much of its time trying to cure all our diseases..... people rely on science, almost like religious people rely on God... they both have given us a fake hope. The world will never be disease free, there will always be something that will affect our health and science isn't actually making it better rather making it worse. What doesn't kill us here (i.e. a flu) will kill a tribesman in the jungle... probably many cultures still alive of which we don't know to much of, have fought disease like cancer and HIV in their own way, who knows how many have developed the immunity to them. Science strives to know the unknown, to discover space,and we still haven't finished to discover our planet.... there is a very high percentage of rainforest that we haven't discovered as such, and lets not forget, we are destroying it already....

when we learn maths at school... you need to study sums, multiples, subtractions and all that before you can solve an algebra equation. How is science going to answer anything if it's not dealing with the main issues. Unfortunately, we will never be supermen, no matter how much ultracool things will be created, we will just look like x-men. at the end of the day we are animals, we are here for a certain amount of time, we need to eat, drink, sleep, keep fit, breath, and take care of ourselves. We live and WE DIE. and this is where for me all of it lies, DEATH....

so many of us are just scared of it, science and religion are just not being honest. Some of us are or will be weakened in our lives, some of us will die young and some won't. we should stop trying to fix it. People think that we are different from animals because we have feelings. we are still animals. (and that doesn't mean animals don't have feelings, who will ever know, really!) By me taking my Hiv meds I'm giving myself hope, constant hope. Is that really good for me? wouldn't acceptance be a good thing to remember too. Science gives Hiv people the thought of having their own children :"OH, well, science nowadays can wash the Hiv virus out out of the sperm a certain percentage of the time".... why would you put any percentage of risk on the life of your daughter or son.

essentially we are greedy and foolish.... we focus on all the wrong things sometimes, atheists and religious. Most of you have spent time arguing on who is right and who is wrong, the believers or the non believers.... which one will lead to a faster evolution of the human being

the only thing that will help us evolve and grow is the belief in eachother, the belief in love and friendship, the belief of unity within deifference. There is no right and no wrong, there just is!!!
and till people don't realise this, nothing will be solved, the day a natural disaster will wipe out our planet, our land or home you won't have God nor an i-phone to help, your gonna wish you have even your grumpy and smelly neighbour to hold hands with just to know that you are not alone asking that question: "what the f***ed happened and why?"!!

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Sean Sanford Apr 09, 2009

If gods not real and this life is our only one, whats to stop us from doing everything morally wrong just to further our own joy?

I'll tell you. People only do what they think is right. Hitler thought it was right to exterminate the Jews and the people who instigated 9/11 thought they were doing the right thing. I could go on and on about people doing things they thought were right, but it all boils down to your social upbringing. Society is what tells us what's moral and immoral, not some ancient text (unless you live in a theocratic dictatorship). Your own moral code is based on your social experiences growing up. Friends, family, neighbors, the media, the community, your church. Everything around us influences our view of whats right and wrong. Not God. Now me personally, I have nothing against religion, but organized religion is the biggest scam in the history of mankind. All organized religion has done for mankind is rob them of their money and lives. The bible even tells us we're sheep and and God is our shepherd. If you do not give to the church you are damned to burn in hell. I dunno about you but that sounds like an organization that's trying to control me.
If God is truly omniscient, omnipotent, kind and benevolent then I think you'll go to heaven for just being a good person, not for accepting Jesus and/or going to church every Sunday. Since God sees everything I do and is everywhere I go, it seems kinda redundant to go to church and repent seeing as I could do it in the comfort of my own home.


My ideology leans more towards atheistic agnostisism because, I have never experienced anything divine, the most atrocious acts in history were carried out in the name of religion and science is my main belief system. If you can give me solid proof, an actual scientific theory on the existence of God I'll change my opinion. But until then the ball's in your court theists.

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John Apr 10, 2009

The problem with this is that, although by any measure of stated importance helping poor and injured the theist make us look bad, when you measure who is actually helping the poor and underprivileged the most it turns out to be the secularist.

For the theist perspective see:
Poll: Atheists less likely to 'do good www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=26675

For the secular perspective (and what's wrong with above presumptions):
Religious Doctors No More Likely To Care For Underserved Patients www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070731085614.htm

Note that bpnews overstates their case while sciencedaily understates theirs in the headlines. And yes, even the author said it was both a surprise and a disappointment. Only I wasn't surprised, I've researched this issue from many different angles.

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S reply Apr 12, 2009

"Do you happen to have any scientific means able to read the heart of those religious people that you seemed inclined to construe their actions as reward motivated and not out of sincere compassion and love?"

And do you have any religious means to explain why the non-religious do good for others? Listen, I'm not saying that all religious people help others because of religion, but the first comment that I replied to was stating just that. I'm just saying that people shouldn't need religion as the reason for helping and giving to the world. And by the way, it is psychologically proven that people help others for a selfish internal satisfaction- which in turn is rewarding for both sides.

"I wish you can satisfy his curiosity when your nephew asked where we all came from, justifying the mathematical probability that all what we see living now first came from non living."

My nephew knows all versions of creation and scientific explanations for life (probably better than most people do); he simply chose the one that made the most sense, the one that continues to expand, explore, and make breakthroughs. He stopped believing in Santa Claus a few years back (to partly relate back to this page).

P.S. The apple doesn't far from the tree.
Jepthah sacrifices his only daughter because he gave his "word to God," and Abraham almost sacrifices his son to prove his dedication to God, and not to mention Jesus who sacrifices himself. But since those are in the Bible, of course they're not disturbing.

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Jenny Apr 12, 2009

I believe we are all here for a reason, that we have a purpose. I believe we are here to grow and learn, to become more aware of who we are and why are here. I believe in free will. I don't believe in coincidences.

For me life is like a maze. It's like I'm a mouse in a maze and I'm looking for the cheese. Sometimes I take a wrong turn and get to a dead end. Sometimes I get really close only to take another wrong turn and end up at another dead end. If and when I (hopfully!) get to the cheese I have found my life purpose - I may, for example, realise that my current career is not the one for me and I quit even though the money was excellent and I start a job that I've always dreamed of doing or maybe I finally decide to end a bad relationship that was going nowhere, these decisions will all take me closer to my true purpose. We make the wrong choices because we have free will and sometimes we let our fear guide us.

I believe it is very important to trust our instincts. We should all develop that aspect of ourselves. Some people do this through organised religion, others opt for a more independent option. Whatever you choose make sure you listen to your instincts. Don't let a religion control you and tell you what to think and likewise don't let your atheist beliefs cloud your instincts either. Trust in them, they are always right.

And finally, although I can see some of the humor in the above posters, I find them quite distasteful. It is the kind of thing that will just give atheism a bad name. Not a smart thing to do in my humble opinion.

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Debar Apr 13, 2009

Yo,
First off Im agnostic, these were entertaining, but most of them just state the same things over and over. and Ive seen them on multiple other sites, sites which also posted the anti-atheism motivational posters, I obviously see your stance but I do believe its a little unfair. Heres my thoughts on religion & atheism (dont bother responding I will probably never come back here, I just stumbled on it anyways)
A) Prayer is not useless, but prayer without action is evil. A study of people meditating to reduce crime in Washington is supposed to have actually reduced crime by about 23% (the murder rates stayed about the same but other crime went down) Meditation is very similar to praying, except more introverted instead of extroverted.

B) Religion is not the cause of war or destruction, or any of these things, they have been around far longer than organized religions have exsisted and to think that religion is the only cause of such things is silly. Religion is normally a "reason" for the uneducated masses for why we go to war, but in actually most organized religions teach peace, or peace was in their original message, it is the fanatics who derange it for their own personal benefit.

C) Science and Religion should have nothing against each other, one is a philosophical view on life and the other is a method for expanding our intelligence as a species.

D) Epicurus was an idiot, I have not personally studied him, but from that single quote of his he acts like if there were some kind of great divine being that this being would stop death and pestilence and all the "bad" things in the world, but this goes on to a deeper philosophical understanding of what is "good?" The fact is that good and bad are just terms which we use to point at things we do and dont like.

E) Final argument that the Christian Dark ages somehow caused the collapse of the roman empire and thus the collapse of all roman technology is completely historically inaccurate. In fact just the opposite is true. Its true that the roman empire did fall, but it wasn't Christians who caused this, it was the Goths, a group of tribesmen who were held under Roman sway and eventually rose up to sack Rome and move on to Spain where they converted to Christianity and became known as the Visigoths. Also by this point Rome itself had already converted to Christianity. Another thing is that writing was kept by Irish monks, allowing scripts & other documents to survive the fall of Rome. completely debunking the idea that Christianity somehow holds people back.

In finality its true that some fanatical religious views hold people back, but so do fanatical atheistic views, or any kind of fanatical view, I mean you spend so much time debating on a forum about whether God exists or not and in the end it is a moot point, get out and live your damn lives, if you wish to be religious then be religious, if you wish to not believe in god then don't. Unless someone physically tries to stop you from living your life then you shouldn't need to argue. But Im making too much sense, carry on debating.

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mew4ever23 Apr 13, 2009

PS: [url = " http://steamcommunity.com/groups/traingod";]ALL HAIL THE TRAIN GOD![/url]

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sasquatch Apr 16, 2009

Nice man lol

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Madafakin Apr 18, 2009

GUWNO

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Atheist Demotivators Apr 21, 2009

Can I not type a 'plus sign'?

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BMW41 Apr 30, 2009

Religion is just peoples' perception of what will happen after death or what we believe we originated from. I believe that religion was formed from the elderly, close to death, to have something comforting to lie on before they lose all their senses and die. Religion is just the cushion to help us endure the inevitable fate we all will experience.

We all are animals. We all have hearts, brains, muscles, nerves, etc. that all species have. I do not understand why we are believing that we are one some higher ground than other species. Eagles have a heightened sense of sight; dogs have heightened sense of smell; it's just that humans acquired the ability to think better than other species. But that shouldn't be the reason why we separate ourselves from them. If you agree, then answer me this: Why do we believe that humans are the center of everything in the universe - our families, our societies, our world? Why do we believe that this infinitesimal world with one "super-smart and superior" species is the center of the whole universe? Have any of you taken into account how small the earth is compared to the solar system alone? And may I remind you that Earth is infinitesimal to our own star itself? And also notice that the sun is small as fuck compared to other stars in our galaxy alone. The solar system is one out of hundreds of billions in a single galaxy and hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe. Hmm... has it ever occurred to you how small our single planet is? So why do we think we are that important?
We are not, and neither are the religions we make up.

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David May 05, 2009

There's no point in arguing with religious people. No matter what logic you use, it won't work. The whole argument has destroyed itself from the start, because you're not arguing with people who value logic and reason. You're arguing with religious people. No matter what the argument is, there's no point. They have an answer for everything, because they can just make it up. Because they can make things up that they will honestly believe, and they will be at rest and satisfied that there are no inconsistencies in the universe.

Sometimes I envy them for that. Here I am, using logic, reason, science, actually working to ensure that I have a full understanding of how things work, of how things should work, of how the universe operates, and all along there are those who don't have to raise a single finger, because they can make up whatever they want to and honestly believe that it solves the issue. Even if there is proof against religion, proof of evolution, paradoxical proofs against an all-knowing and all-powerful sentient being, relativistic paradoxes about sending information faster than light being impossible, destroying any possibility for anything to be "all-knowing", no matter what proof or evidence you use, there's no point. Logic is the work of the devil. Fossils are the work of the devil. Relativity is the work of the devil. Mathematical proof is the work of the devil. When "faith" is involved, there's always an answer, and it always serves whatever belief you want it to. That's the genius of religion and the ultimate power of faith. And that's why it's so difficult to argue against.

So there's no point. Give it a rest, guys, go have a beer or something.

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Set May 06, 2009

It's funny people say the "crazy" examples of people doing "God's work" (such as killing their children) are made up by the people. Yet, the bible itself and all its stories, etc, which are also "God's work", or word, or whatever, just AREN'T made up! It's so simple! If it's good, it's true, if not, no way! It's selective ignorance. Stop choosing to be naive.

The argument of missionaries doing work being better than other work, and helping because they want to not because of heaven is mute. It's all relative. In my honest opinion, I don't think it's helpful AT ALL to go to underdeveloped countries and teach people a religion and tell them it's the truth and it will save them! That's terrible. So your "work", in some opinions (at least mine), is detrimental because it takes from the constructive lives some people are TRYING to live, and leads them on a path of religious following that they don't even get a opportunity to fully explore. And the most disgusting thing is that they are told "if you know this and do not follow it, you will go to hell and never see your family again after you die." Wow, such thoughtless love missionaries show! Join the Peace Corps.

The problem for us atheists is that we wouldn't care if people were religious, but it encroaches on every aspect of life EVERY day. People bother you about religion. People judge based on religion. People vote for presidents that LEAD OUR COUNTRY because of religion, rather than politics. People kill, steal, hate, hijack planes, and manipulate because of religion.

No one is saying SOME religious people don't do good things, plenty do, but it's just as easy to do good things without it. We all enjoy other people and helping and appreciation, it's the reason for all of it. But religion is the NEVER ENDING, IRREFUTABLE, BLIND, CARELESS excuse for a lot of the BAD things people actually do. Without religion it's hard to see much reason for some of those "crazy" examples, other than the people are crazy! People do bad no matter why, let's not give the bad people a scapegoat.

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Lesa Jun 02, 2009

Melvin Snerdley wrote: "Atheism is based just as much on the faith that there is no God as the Believer's faith that there IS a God. It's all about Faith, dude. If atheism makes you happy, then so be it. But don't insist on it being the Truth, because you must might be wrong."

You're basing your whole argument on a misconception, Melvin. Atheism is merely the LACK of belief, which is quite often based on a lack of evidence. Other times, it may be based on having never been introduced to the concept of deities, and one certainly can't believe in something they've never heard of. How can one believe in something when they have (1) never heard of it, or (2) heard of it but the only 'evidence' is in books that involve talking snakes, three-headed dragons, or gods giving birth to other gods out of their heads (to name stories from a few different myths)? When we can discredit the "holy" books that tell us about these alleged gods (which we have), then what other "evidence" do we have? And therefore, why should we believe, when the "evidence" has been discredited? We can say, "Ok, so maybe there is one or more gods, but none of them got it right," but that doesn't mean we should BELIEVE there IS one or more gods.

It takes faith to make an assertion without any evidence whatsoever. Being unconvinced of wild-sounding assertions that have NO evidence takes NO faith whatsoever.

There COULD be an 8-legged dog somewhere due to a birth defect, but I'm not going to believe it unless I see one, or at least hear it from credible sources. Does it take faith to not believe in that 8-legged dog? It's much more plausible than the gods described in the Bible, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Epic of Gilgamesh, or any of the other ancient myths that not only claim that gods exist, but also claim to know their nature.

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WhyDebate May 19, 2009

I used to not care about these debates and respected peoples beliefs as their own. But ever since 9/11 & the last 8 years of the Bush administration, I've started to realize that widespread religion and faith in unverifiable deity and events and places (heaven & damnation in hell for instance) is not good for human civilization. Spreading religion is also encouraging people to be lazy intellectually. Because why seek evidence and solution to world problems when you can just give up and chalk it up to god's will and master plan? Not seeking evidence, advancing technology, health care, social sciences, and other progress is a poor decision for us all. What's the point if there will be armageddon, why preserve the planet? These beliefs are dangerous to everyone, especially when politicians believe in them and make decisions with disregard for real evidence.

If you see a car coming towards you, you get out of the way. The evidence is that a car is coming towards you, the action you take is to get out of the way in the interest of self preservation. Not blindly believing that you'll be safe and pray that the other car will change course at the last second. If we apply evidence, reasoning, and counter viewpoints to ideas and actions in almost everything we do everyday, why is religious faith so special and not applicable to the same rules?

I believe religion was created as a way to explain the mysteries back in ancient times before we had scientific methods, technology, and even documented literature to share and pool our knowledge. Religious faith helped people feel good in an uncertain world. It has outlived it's usefulness and is now impeding humanity's progress by promoting discrimination and cultural wars. As for religion helping the poor and underdeveloped countries. It's really just a temporary and ineffective way to help and for those involved to feel better about themselves. It's much more effective to study social issues through research and the scientific method, and then propose solutions to end poverty. We have a much better chance of success using the same process that allowed us to develop satellite communications, airplanes, cancer treatments...etc.

I attended a Richard Dawkins speech locally, where his topic was "Why We Need Purpose". Finding purpose is a human adapated condition. When we are presented with a strange object, our first inclination is to ask what is it for? This innate curiousity is part of our human nature, likely developed through natural selection and evolution so we discover/use tools to survive in the wild. Whatever it's origin. The result is that we seek purpose in everything. So we often want to know what is the purpose of life? Mr. Dawkins posed other questions such as "What is the purpose of the moon?" "What is the purpose of a banana?" "What is the purpose of stars in the sky?" Just because something exists does not mean there must be a purpose for its existence. This may sound depressing for those theists, but once you accept it, it enriches your life because you'll feel a sense of urgency in accomplishing something and make an impact with your life rather than wait for death and the after life.

Regarding the big bang, some scientists believe there's a god that created it, or question what was before it? An out-of-the-box hypothesis would be time is infinite, the big bang was not the beginning, but just one point in time of the universe. The universe could be in an infinite expansion and contraction loop, and the big bang was just the begining of the current expansion cycle. Such thoughts would not be possible unless one thinks freely, and one cannot think freely if one is limited to seeking answers in the bible and 2000 year old ideologies.

For those open minded enough, watch the documentary "The God Who Wasn't There" ( http://www.thegodmovie.com). Another good one is "Religulous". They do a much better job debunking religion and explain why it needs to be debunked. It's time non-theists stand up and get rid of all this nonsense so we can make progress and a better society for our future generations.

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Lesa Jun 02, 2009

WhyDebate wrote: "I used to not care about these debates and respected peoples beliefs as their own. But ever since 9/11 & the last 8 years of the Bush administration, I've started to realize that widespread religion and faith in unverifiable deity and events and places (heaven & damnation in hell for instance) is not good for human civilization."

This is exactly why I started speaking up. I get into debates with creationists, knowing the creationists aren't going to listen, but also knowing that someone looking for answers can come across these debates, see how full of holes the creationist's arguments are, and also see the logic in mine. The key is exposing people to these ideas before it's too late for them, or while they are questioning beliefs they used to cling to but are now looking for answers that their church fails to provide.

I've heard of creationists coming around in rare cases, but it's more efficient to get the ideas out in public where the fence-sitters can find them. Also, we need to stress often how religion DOES hurt society when it pushes its ideals onto the general public through politics and other means, otherwise we get people like the ones here who keep saying we should respect their beliefs and stop saying bad things about their religion. I'm sorry, but religion is a virus that spreads and mutates, and we need to develop and provide the vaccine if we want our society to be healthy.

Keep fighting the good fight, WhyDebate and others here. :)

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Dereck Aug 13, 2009

Hey,

I just found this article while searching for motivational posters.
Well, I couldn't help but read the comments (or at least the beginning of them), and I must say I'm impressed with the quality of arguments I've read so far. Noone has been discrediting someone else.

Anyway, I've been atheist since 2006, and to be frank from 2004 to 2006 I had my own religion (before that time I was too young to care about religion), a belief in God, but differently. I could describe it as simply having God in mind constantly, and sometime ask him for help. Well, you might not believe me, but sometimes what depended on total luck ended up as I asked.
Now, let's get to the point. So, I've been atheist since the middle of 2006, and, well, the only difference I see with Christians is the faith. I listen to music, I'm concerned about problems my country can have and I drink a beer every now and then. Just like everyone else. My point is, apart from believing in an entity or not, we're all the same - that is, humans.
So instead of showing who's doing the most good, who is being correct or not (in terms of what they said, not what they believe in), we should just get it over with.
I mean, who really cares what religion is this guy or that guy? Personally, when I talk to someone, I don't ask them their religion. As an example, I didn't know most of my classmates were atheists until a few months ago. I was seeing them five days per week for two years, and I never cared about their religion. Then again, if they told me they were Muslim or Christians, that would have not made any difference for me.

So, to resume my kind of messy arguments, I think that we should just get religion into the background instead of the foreground. There is no need to change one's behavior with someone because of his belief.

Once again, I must say I was really impressed with the quality of arguments and how the conversation didn't end up badly here, so my arguments might be a little inappropriate, yet I hope some of you will like them and pass them on.

Good night to all.

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Little 15-year old Sep 12, 2009

Hmm, well, I don't know very much about all of this religious and scientific information, or exactly what it all means; I'm a Christian, but I can see what it is on both sides.
Here's my argument- no, my belief, I'm not one to argue- as to why there is a God- or at least, should be one.
I think we just need something to believe in- and I'm not talking about a reason to be good, I'm talking about a reason to continue living. And okay, okay, I understand that not everyone goes through really bad times in life, and not everyone feels depressed about stuff, but some of us need something to believe in for hope. Especially with the world the way it is today; sometimes we just need something to keep us moving forward. I think He's a force, something that's in people- so for you atheists that help people, I think he's still working within you, somewhere...
As for the thing about where He comes from and that the concept of time was created by humans: that's a good point, that there's no such thing as time- infinity itself is a concept, not a thing, so there can't be a "before". So why do we believe that the universe "began" with a speck of dust? That EVERYTHING "began" with that initial explosion? What if that explosion was only the next step in a series of things? We call it "the circle of life," so why doesn't that include EVERYTHING? For all we know- since time doesn't exsist- there actually might've been something before that speck of dust. A a whole other universe could've been created, expanded, and gone before then. Millions of universes. It never "started" because there is no time, so it will never "end" either. God created this universe, the Earth, and us- but no one ever said that this was the first time he'd done this. Things are meant to be born, then die, then start over- and maybe that's just what happened long before us. Then He created another speck of dust and said, "okay, time to do this all over again!" I mean, God must've been doing SOMETHING before, I think that would be boring is he just sat around litearally forever and then suddenly decided to do something. Maybe we- are universe- is merely the next step in the GRANDEST scale of things. Maybe He's just trying out different things each time around and such, like maybe last time the sky was green, the grass was blue, and we all had some shade of purple skin. I don't know- I really DON'T. Nobody does, and I think that's what's so great about it. I can't prove I'm right, you can't prove I'm wrong; the important thing is what goes on inside of us, what our souls are made of... and for those of you who disagree, for those of you who want to argue- be my guest. It's interesting, this whole thing about living and being alive. Life is beautiful, the whole concept of it- even the idea of sorrow and pain and how it kicks us around and is annoying; there's just a wonder to what it's all for...
I'm 15 years old, and I don't know anything about the universe; to me, some things just cannot be explain with human reason. We have limited ourselves and thinking possibilities to what we already know- which could very well be wrong. I think we should all think what we want to think, work for the good of each other, and just see how all our efforts turn out in the end.
One more question, which is not related to this exactly but I would love to have an answer to: WHY is it that we're looking for other planets that have Earth-like life sustaining conditions?! I think that's the DUMBEST thing in the world, that we won't go past that- i mean, what if there are beings out there who live off of breathing helium and and die from too much oxygen, things like that? Why do scientists limit themselves like this, there are beings living in the Earth's most extreme and humanly toxic places? ...But okay, maybe that's not the dumbest thing; with such a realm of possibilties, maybe it's just best to narrow it down to what we're already familiar with... still, though...
Well, that's then end of my insight on these issues, I doubt I've really affected any of you, though. I'm not stupid- I'm a straight-A sophmore heading into the IB program next year, so if you would like to have an intelligent discussion I will try my best. I doubt that anyone will contact me anyways, though. Oh well. :)

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Scott Klarr Sep 12, 2009

>> I think we just need something to believe in- and I'm not talking about a reason to be good, I'm talking about a reason to continue living.

But how really does believing in a God make *your* life any more purposeful? Do you believe your life has the purpose of telling the almighty how much you love him? How does believing in God make your day-to-day life any more meaningful than if you didn't believe in him? If anything, in my mind, believing that this life is all we get makes every day THAT much more special because you know it is limited. Imagine that you lived in a very rich family in the richest country in the world. You never have to worry about food being unavailable because you have more than you will ever need. You probably are not going to put a high value on bread. Now imagine just the opposite: you live in the poorest country there is and you get to eat maybe 3 times a week. You know what food you do get is limited. How much do you think you will appreciate every bite? Probably a WHOLE lot, right? The same thing goes for life. If you think that after your time on earth, there is an eternity of living waiting for you, you are probably not going to put as high of value on every day. On the other hand, if you believe there is no afterlife and the 50-100 years you have on earth is all you have, you are likely to appreciate every minute you have much more than if you were expecting to live for eternity. Put into perspective like this, it is very difficult for me to understand why people think that believing in god makes their life any more purposeful or fulfilling.

As for your contemplations of "before," you are absolutely right, we have no idea if there was a "before" our current universe or if there will be an after (or if there ever was a beginning or if there will be an end). We just don't know, and scientists don't claim to know. But that lack of knowing does not justify filling the gaps of science with imaginary beings. There are many things we don't know: if there is a God, what happened before the universe, if there are other universes (parallel or inline), etc. What it boils down to is this: it is perfectly reasonable to contemplate and fantasies about what COULD BE, but it is wholly illogical to assume you know certain truths that are so plainly unknowable (such as if there is a god, if they care about us, what they want us to do, etc). I think it is reasonable to accept the *possibility* of god(s), but until there is evidence, that openness to possibility should never turn into belief.

>> I'm 15 years old, and I don't know anything about the universe; to me, some things just cannot be explain with human reason.

You are still young and you appear to be smart. Perhaps one day you will gain an interest in science and truly understand how magnificent it is. Unlike religion, science is based solely on observing facts of nature and the wonders of our physical reality are awe-inducing.

>> the important thing is what goes on inside of us, what our souls are made of...

The concept of the soul has never been anything more than a myth. It was mere speculation to explain consciousness and all arguments for the existence of a "soul" are nothing more than speculation without evidence trying to keep alive speculation that was formed, once again, on no evidence. If you are interested in learning about the scientific aspects of who we are, do a search for material on neuroscience, neurobiology, evolutionary psychology, consciousness (Daniel Dennett) as well as superorganism. Every aspect of human nature and being has been, in one form or another, linked and reduced to mere brain activity. Also a book that is a light read and humorous regarding the scientific attempts to locate/weigh/study the soul: Spook by Mary Roach.

>> WHY is it that we're looking for other planets that have Earth-like life sustaining conditions?!

Why not? In doing so, we may discover something that will change the course of our future. Much of the technology and understanding we have today has roots in "pointless" scientific pursuits.

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Little 15-year old Sep 13, 2009

Well then, a response!

>>But how really does believing in a God make *your* life any more purposeful?

*Note that I may very well contradict myself, excuse me if I do.

When I said that some of us need a reason to continue living, I.. hmm, let me put it this way. I'm not living life more appreciarively because there is a god, I'm living it more confidently. Sure, a hard-working man can bring himself prosperity, but when he tumbles all the way down to the bottom, into the deepest pits of despair with no one else around to comfort him- where does he turn? Would he rather walk alone, to clean up this mess all by himself, to suffer this saddness without any hope- I mean, people fall down and get hurt. Really badly. We push ourselves off the cliffs by ourselves sometimes, too. And sometimes we just feel alone- so we turn to God as a source of comfort and inspiration. When we feel like there's not another person in the world who could love us, God always will. I am not living life any less appreciately because of an afterlife; life is beautiful and I try to recognize that with every breath I take, my time here is short.

So God sounds like a fairytale- a Santa Clause for adults, as one poster says. Why is it wrong to believe in a fairytale? Why is wrong to believe in something that doesn't make any sense logically? Why shouldn't I shun the idea that there are somethings that are impossible? Why should I limit myself like that?

So yeah, science is tangible, it's provable... but there is something beautiful, to me, in the idea that there are some things that have no answers, that we can believe in the scientifically impossible. If I get to the end and find out that there never was a god... well, then I can only say that it was a was a great illusion. I'd have no regrets.



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Steve Sep 13, 2009

So I think we can agree that
a)Atheists have morals
b)They are looking towards bettering mankind, or at least not putting a limit on thought



Atheism on the whole, is a logical belief, whereas most religions are not(I'm not bashing, but faith is the belief, despite lack of evidence)

People keep complaining about atheists always trying to spread their belief, or lack there of, but it is very similar to spreading any other belief. It is spread because we are looking towards the betterment of mankind, religion has caused a lot of harm. Atheists spread there non belief through logical and rational dicussion not through fear of repercussions or violence. Now religion isnt logical but people are, which is why people who already have a religion are usually so set in there ways. For example Judaism vs Christianity when the arguments start they base not changing their belief based on the illogic of the others belief, while ignoring the holes within their own. Now this problem doesn't arise when arguing an atheist because the only defense of their attacks on the holes present in your religion is to justify those faults in the religion. When arguing an atheist you cant attack their belief cause they dont have one, you can only backup your own, which has already been shown to be full of flaws, and not just by atheists, but by practitioners of other religions.

I personally argue for the sake of atheism because it holds no prejudiced against anyone(just against the ignorance shown in other religions, shown through the many evident faults present in almost every religions doctrine). It does nothing to prevent our learning and in fact incourages it in order to further justify our position. The arguments of atheism are always evolving with out changing its whole position this is beacause every new flaw found in religion serves to build up our argument, this cant be said about of a lot of religions which change and further alienate some of their earlier beliefs.eg. stoning
Other religions have kept the same arguments since their inception, but the flaws remain, and cant be explained away and so are ignored. Yet these religions continue to study these texts to the point of exclusion or even arguing against any scientific advancement.

So if we can accept that most athiests are moral people we can argue that logical argument has a much more sucessful chance nowadays to convince people against what they believe, rather than another equally flawed belief. So whereas religion has lead to a number of atrocities and still promote the ideas behind such atrocities, would it not be to the betterment of everyone to drop these religions and embrace atheism. If there were not these religions warring against each other causeing strife across the planet, i think it is safe to say the world would be a better place. And since most religions argue on behalf of improving mankind, how can you justify not doing what is the potentially best for mankind, when sticking to your religion continues to cause strife.

And hey since atheism is based on logic if someday we did discover that your religion was the correct one, well now everybody would be a practitioner of it, and what harm would have been done in the meantime.

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Guillaume Nov 25, 2009

I've glanced over some of the posts, so I hope I'm not repeating anything that's been said before.

I'm an atheist, and atheism has brought me no answer as to our purpose, nor has it brought me any inner peace. At this point in my life, I like to think that's because there might not be an answer, and I'm ok with that. I have no inner peace, but I refuse to take the easy way out and let blind faith sooth over this "mal de vivre". I have faith (haha, get it?) that existence as a whole is marvelous enough to be worthy of worship. My God is reality. My inner turmoil can only be conquered by myself.

The real point I want to make however, is to warn atheists. Like most things, religion has good and bad in it. Religion gives peace and harmony to many who - just like you and me - feel this "mal de vivre". One thing I believe everyone can agree on is that we should all strive to lessen suffering, which exists everywhere.

You see the problem is that by blaming religion, you are mistakenly targeting an overwhelming majority of believers who will never force their views on anyone, who do not believe science should be hampered, or religion taught in school. This categorization is a great discredit to your cause, namely freedom of will, research and education. Keep in mind that bringing down religion will only leave a gap to be filled by another entity which may be filled by a greater evil.

Now I'm not saying we should choose the status quo because it may be the lesser of two evils. I am saying: make sure your arguments and debates are properly targeted. Your beef is with hampered scientific research, and freedom of religion (or lack thereof).

Sending flak to religion as a whole makes you no better then those you accuse.

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Mikey Dec 04, 2009

So presumably then good sir you have asked every person you have ever conversed with whether or not they are atheist to be able to voice you comment?

As an atheist it is not religion I have a problem with, I believe that we are all free to believe as we wish. However I have a problem with the education system, science and politics being defined by religion as they are these days. I also have a problem with extremist fundamentalists for obvious reasons.

Lastly have you noticed how religions are one of the best pretexts for wars? For well over 1,000 years christianity has been a pretext or cause of more wars and killings than anyone alive would care to count. Is that really so precious and worthy of being believed in? Well as I said I leave it to all to decide for themselves - but at least teach both sides and let atheists get on with their own lives.

Wasn't it George HW Bush who said that atheists are not patriotic and not worthy of the same level of liberty as christians? You wonder how an atheist might hate religion? Its really not hard, trust me.

I understand that most religious people are very decent and that the media does religion no favours. However religion doesn't help itself when trying to put limitations on other people like prop 8 in California or the recent vote against same sex marriage in NY state (The home of the statue of liberty no less).

I could go on and on but I really don't see the point. Teach both sides and let all decide for themselves without deriding them.

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Sally Dec 07, 2009

>>>I think we just need something to believe in- and I'm not talking about a reason to be good, I'm talking about a reason to continue living. And okay, okay, I understand that not everyone goes through really bad times in life, and not everyone feels depressed about stuff, but some of us need something to believe in for hope

Little 15yo, you are wise beyond your years. However, once you have seen thru man's insecurity and the reasons we latch on to delusion we out grow our naive need for 'make believe'. In evolutionary terms our minds are geared towards denial - how else would we cope with the realities of life? We are born with a terminal disease (ageing) - our bodies have a shelf life. We are too intelligent to accept our small existence beset with 'pain and suffering'. It's so easy to sugar coat reality with a fairy god mother et al.

And what of those who've been encoded from birth by our parents version of reality?

Added to these are the newly converted of whom it is said: 'there is no one worse than the newly converted'. The brain provides special chemicals to help them stay hooked?

I look forward to the time (not in my life time) when brain scientists show religious addicts what parts of their brains have been over stimulated with addictive chemicals to promote their reality. In the mean time we should be kind to religious people coz they are suffering an insidious form of mental illness. They have no idea what harm they do. (they couldn't do so much harm to others in full knowledge of their actions)



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Christian Mar 29, 2010

you wish!

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Camille Dec 10, 2009

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RAMESH SACHDEVA Jan 08, 2010

Excellent one

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RAMESH SACHDEVA Jan 08, 2010

EXCELLENT ONE

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Mr.Hales Jan 29, 2010

I love endless (and ultimately pointless) debate! It is, at the very least, good brain exercise, yes?

At any rate...

God is all-knowing and all-powerful. God, then, creates Lucifer with full knowledge that there will be a betrayal. Thus, God creates evil. Isiah 45:7 (KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." And Mr.Hales saw there was proof, and it was Good.

That's okay, though. No, really. Because life is dynamic equilibrium. All natural systems seek balance. This is why, for instance, a soda can feels cold in the hand as one's flesh and the tasty beverage seek to become the same temperature. One cannot know the light but for the darkness. One may not understand good without the existence of evil. A good deed, even a glorious one, becomes meaningless without the context of an equally potent evil. A selfless sacrifice means nothing without the opposition of cold-blooded murder.

Indeed, Satan is what keeps God in business. Without His immortal foil, what would His great goodness oppose? How could our tiny, human minds even glimpse the glory of God and His Salvation if we had no familiarity with horror, loss and pain?

So, why spite the shadow for doing its job? "Love the sinner; hate the sin." But why? "God says so." Fine. But why? Without sin, why does righteousness even matter? What does it even mean to be "good" if there is no "evil"?

Dogma, be it born of atheism (There is NO GOD, dammit!) or religion (You will all BURN IN HELL!) or science (Will all of you SHUT UP!? I'm experimenting!) only creates division where there simply is none.

I am you and you are me and we are God.
Such a thing I must admit must strike you odd.
But all of life and time and space infinity
Is made of all the exact same stuff: eternal energy.

Fun, right? Here's why: According to (an admittedly basic understanding of) quantum superposition, every particle simultaneously coexists at every point in time and space. Therefore the particles (and remember matter = energy) that compose my body, mind and soul are very likely the exact same particles that make you, and my chair, and the Milky Way and (wait for it) God.

So, not only are "all men brothers", we are actually the same being. We are God. God is us... at least at the subatomic level. ;-)

Souls are shards of the shattered divine.

I saw an article in the (relative to my own time scale) recent past discussing the physiological symptoms of prayer and meditation. Ya'll likely have access to some sort of rapid-response indexing system that could return like a googol results or something, so you can research this in your own Copious Free Time, but the gist was basically that when a person has a spiritual experience (be it fellowship with the LORD, Nirvana, communing with one's spirit animal, etc.) the part of the brain that differentiates between Self and Other sort of turns off. In that moment of spiritual ecstasy, the sensation seems to be caused by a total loss of Self and we are, for that instance, very literally at one with all things (just as we truly are). Pretty neat, eh?

Moving on...

Want to have some fun with math? Great! You can try this at home, kids!

Did you know that any real number multiplied by 9 will, after adding all the digits until a single digit remains, give you 9 back? For instance:
9 * 5 = 45
4 + 5 = 9
9 * 83 = 747
7 + 4 + 7 = 18; 1 + 8 = 9
Now for the real fun... because of this interesting property, 9 is sometimes referred to as the number of pride, because it always returns to itself. Interestingly enough pride was the sin that fell the angels.
More interesting is the fact that 6 + 6 + 6 = 18 (and 1 + 8 = 9) so we know that 666 is a product of x * 9, right (and x = 74, if you were curious and lazy)? Also 6 * 6 * 6 = 216 and 2 + 1 + 6 = 9 (gasp!). Now, if one truly considers, pride is truly the root of all evil.

Here's why: Only by considering one's self to be more important, more deserving, than another could one break any of the Ten Commandments. I deserve my neighbor's wife, for instance... or his big screen TV... or his life... I know better than God, so I'll go to church on Sunday and worship other gods and bow to idols of some Caucasian corpse, for instance.

Okay, so numbers are fun, but what does it all mean?!
Absolutely nothing! Yay, that was fun!

Honestly though, people should stop worrying about tattoos or microchips... the Mark of the Beast upon the hand or forehead is about being devilish in one's actions (hand) or thoughts (forehead). Pretty simple when you think about it.

Interestingly, somebody is supposed to make the whole world worship the Beast... I'm sure glad there aren't people out there trying to convince others to join a massive, dogmatic cult based on fear, hate-mongering, and corruption while having sex with altar boys or anything. I mean, if something like that was going on, I'd be worried about Judgment Day...

Speaking of important days:

Saturday is the seventh day of the week. Matthew 5:19 - "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." In other words: Going to church on Sunday is the moral equivalent of murder, adultery, thievery and idolatry, right?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure if I ever hear any more of that "reason for the season" bullshit, I'll have to become violent. Jesus was born in the spring, people. The shepherds were in the fields with the flocks, not snuggling up in a warm house on a cold winter's night.

Don't worry, though, just because Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, that's no reason not to celebrate! I mean, lots of really important individuals were born on December 25th, including: Krishna, Mithra, Osiris, Horus, Buddha, Beddou, Quetzalcoatl, Hercules, Tammuz, Zoroaster, Dionysus, Hermes, Bacchus, and Prometheus.

It's a popular day amongst the pagans, apparently (who also happen to be the source of nearly every Xmas tradition).

Perhaps people should actually read that book... Hell, reading any book might help.

Ah, but it's tradition, though. God couldn't really expect us to follow all TEN (and ten.. that's a lot) of those laws that He wrote into stone with his finger. Besides, there's Grace, right? I mean, I'm forgiven even if I choose the flaunt the Law right in God's face 52 Sundays a year for the duration of my mortal existence, right?

Where am I? What am I doing in this hand-basket?

It's funny the things people cherry-pick, you know? I mean, what could be easier than resting on Saturday? Nope, screw that, instead how's about we do some good ol' fashioned gay bashing (while somehow not passing judgment at the same time) instead, eh? That would be so cool, dood!

Thankfully for the homosexuals, though, it's simply a matter of choice, right? They can just choose to be straight, right now! Because it is a lifestyle choice! There's even a 12-step program! With the love of Jesus, you don't have to love men... er, except for Jesus. And his Dad.

So, why don't some of you straight Xians choose to be gay. Just go be gay, right now! Go out and become sexually aroused by members of your own sex and develop deep, meaningful, romantic feelings for these same-sex persons. Pine for them, fantasize about them. I'm fairly straight, as these things go and, try as I might, I just can't be gay. And believe me, I've tried. Women are mysterious creatures that horrify and confuse men (especially their husbands) and it would sure be easier to hang out with a guy all day and play video games and have anal sex.

If I haven't made my point already, how about this:
I'm going to choose to join a class of people who have been persecuted, tortured and murdered for so long the Jews look at them and say, "Those poor bastards have really gotten a raw deal." I'm going to choose this existence for myself, okay? But I won't tell a soul about it. I'll have some very frightening experiences in my younger years, be bullied and berated by my peers, and decide that I can be straight. I'll pull it off, too. I'll live out my whole life denying who I am... er, chose to be... so I can fit in. So God will love me. So Mom and Dad don't disown me. I'll choose that life for myself.... that's awesome, right?

Or, I could just tell everyone and trust the good nature of my fellow men and women that I won't end up dying hung on a fence somewhere or suffer some other fate so unlikely that it's probably never happened, not even once. I'll tell my parents and when they say they never want to see me again because I'm an abomination in the eyes of God, I'll totally understand that. Because it was my choice, right?

Really, what sort of misanthropic twit actually believes such dunder-headed nonsense?

If I can choose my sexual orientation, then surely I can also choose my eye-color, and my gender and my race... Well, maybe if I was Michael Jackson...

Anyway...

Here's the real deal, people:

Jesus was neat. Had great ideas and was murdered for them. He thought that everyone should be nice to each other and love each other and help each other because it would be the right thing to do. Y'shua ben Yosef (Jesus, yo) seemed pretty keen on this idea that people had no right to make up their minds about anyone else. Really, that's pretty cool, right? Be nice and don't judge and definitely don't go out of your way to screw up somebody else's day. And because of that (and some business about having the Creator of Heaven and Earth on speed dial) he was tortured and murdered.

Reminds me of some other fairly nifty individuals... Martin Luther King, Jr. comes to mind. Peaceful guy, wanted everyone to enjoy their innate brotherhood. Killed for it...

I learned my lesson, though... you sure won't catch me trying to make the world a better place. I don't care if they start time (or the calender, at least) over for me! :-P

I'm actually pretty happy being alive and father to two amazing kids. I hope I can avoid messing them up too badly. I believe that if I can pull that off, I may just have done my part and won't have to be gunned down for my trouble.

Whatever I do, I shouldn't care that there is so much food in the supermarket that some of it goes bad and must be discarded while people starve to death around the world.

I definitely won't give a crap about pharmacies destroying expired drugs while people waste away from easily curable ailments world wide.

I certainly will pay no notice that, while "Ethanol [is] added for cleaner burning fuel", there are 100% clean alternatives available today... I mean, "nobody" else cares, right? And by "nobody" I mean people with lots and lots of money and power and real estate and private jets and things.

I guess what I'm saying here, right at the end, is that maybe we (and by "we" I mean us humans) have more important things to talk about.

P.S. Ia! Ia Nyarlathotep, Soul and Messenger of the Outer Gods!

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spyderhunter May 04, 2010

i like Squirrels

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Caboose Sep 05, 2010

Okay guys, seriously. Arguments gone on long enough. Anyone with half a brain could understand that god doesn’t exist. There’s nothing waiting for you after death. Absolutely nothing. Deal with it and get over it. The only reason you believe in some omnipotent asshole, is because you either have nothing better to do, or you’re just that fucking lonely and pathetic. I pity you guys honestly. Even you atheists. If you’re really so against religion in all of its various annoying forms, do something about it. Don’t just fucking sit there and keep complaining. Have you seen where it gets you? Nowhere, obviously. You’re all stupid. I don’t believe in anything at all, and guess what? I’m more than likely living a much better life than any of you. You know why? I’m my own guide in life. I’ve accepted death in any form, and the lone empty nothingness than follows. I don’t need some crucified zombie asshole to tell me how I should act, or what I should or should not believe. I carve my own path in society. And I’m fine with it. I see the beauty in nature, in the universe, and I see and understand the physics and sciences behind all of its creation. And it’s perfectly obvious to me, that there is no way that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there controlling and watching EVERY LAST HUMAN ON THE PLANET! Zeus can’t even do that. And according to Greek mythology, he’s just as omnipotent as Christ. But guess what? He still requires help! Get some since into you. No religion makes any since. (Refer to the poster titled “Christianity†with the picture of “Jesus†on the cross) I’m sick and tired of you people, both atheists and religious types. The poster referring to the Christian dark ages graph is actually pretty accurate. Our race would be twice as advanced as it is right now if religion hadn’t halted the advance of science in its very early stages. All of you just need to STFU and GTFO. Or stop complaining about each other.

I’ve said my piece.
Sincerely, Michael J. Caboose

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lolworth Oct 03, 2010

TL;DR

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ucwatididther? Oct 13, 2010

TS;DR

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mr. bishop Dec 14, 2010

stitch*

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aric hotty Dec 16, 2010

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IS THIS A LONG ENOUGH COMMENT?! HUH?! IS IT?!!!!!

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apple Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery-model.php/1_apple
compaq Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery-model.php/1_compaq
Dell Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/dell.htm
fujitsu Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery-model.php/1_fujitsu
hp Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/hp.htm
ibm Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery-model.php/1_ibm
sony Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/sony.htm
Toshiba Laptop Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/toshiba.htm
ACER AS07B42 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/acer-AS07B42-94881
ACER GRAPE34 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/acer-GRAPE34-94426
ACER LC.BTP00.006 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/acer-LC.BTP00.006-94584
APPLE A1175 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/apple-A1175-84482
APPLE A1189 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/APPLE-A1189-85288
ASUS A32-F5 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/asus-A32-F5-116372
HP Pavilion dv2000 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/hp-Pavilion-dv2000-Series-83802
HP Pavilion dv1000 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/hp-Pavilion-DV1000-Series-45931
NX6120 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/batteries.php/hp+compaq_business+notebook+nx6120_2624_33160
HP ZV5000 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/hp-Pavilion-ZV5000-Series-114218
hp 510 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/hp-510-117089
HP F4809A battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/hp-F4809A-297
TOSHIBA PA3450U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3450U-1BRS-35661
TOSHIBA PA3399U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3399U-1BRS-29698
TOSHIBA PA3399U-1BAS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3399U-1BAS-29697
TOSHIBA PA3399U-2BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3399U-2BRS-32304
TOSHIBA PA3534U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3534U-1BRS-83176
TOSHIBA PA3534U-1BAS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3534U-1BAS-110657
TOSHIBA PA3535U-1BAS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3535U-1BAS-83317
TOSHIBA PA3285U-3BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3285U-3BRS-33679
TOSHIBA PA3451U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3451U-1BRS-33191
TOSHIBA PA3465U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3465U-1BRS-33488
TOSHIBA PA3450U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3450U-1BRS-35661
SONY PCGA-BP2NX battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/sony-PCGA-BP2NX-485
Dell inspiron 1420 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1420-87717
Dell m1330 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-XPS-M1330-92762
Dell M1730 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-XPS-M1730-117737
Dell Inspiron 6400 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-6400-92713
Dell Inspiron 9200 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-9200-16657
Dell Inspiron 9400 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-9400-29538
Dell Inspiron 1300 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1300-49734
dell D820 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D820-75036
Dell gd761 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-GD761-92703
Dell kd476 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-KD476-92717
Dell pc764 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-PC764-72683
Dell Inspiron 640m Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-640m-35589
Dell Inspiron 1521 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1521-93643
Dell Inspiron 510m battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-510m-11541
Dell Latitude D500 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D500-Series-998
Dell Latitude D520 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D520-32645
Dell GD761 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-GD761-92703
Dell NF343 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-NF343-72724
Dell D5318 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-D5318-16652
Dell G5260 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-G5260-16654
Dell Inspiron 9200 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-9200-16657
Dell Latitude C500 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-C500-109069
Dell HD438 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-HD438-49727
Dell GK479 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-GK479-93634
Dell PC764 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-PC764-72683
Dell KD476 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-KD476-92717
Dell Inspiron 1150 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1150-40288
Dell inspiron 8500 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-8500-Series-8880
Dell Inspiron 4100 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-4100-23002
Dell Inspiron 4000 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-4000-23001
Dell Inspiron 8200 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-8200-23005
Dell FK890 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-FK890-94410
Dell Inspiron 1721 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1721-93645
Dell Inspiron 1300 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1300-49734
Dell Inspiron 1520 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1520-93642
Dell Latitude D600 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D600-Series-999
Dell XPS M1330 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-XPS-M1330-92762
Dell Latitude D531N Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D531N-85350
Dell INSPIRON 6000 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-6000-16656
Dell INSPIRON 6400 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-6400-92713
Dell Inspiron 9300 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-9300-29539
Dell INSPIRON 9400 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-9400-29538
Dell INSPIRON e1505 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-E1505-92714
Dell INSPIRON 2500 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-2500-22998
Dell INSPIRON 630m battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-630m-35588
Dell Latitude D820 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D820-75036
Dell Latitude D610 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D610-12555
Dell Latitude D620 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D620-72686
Dell Latitude D630 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D630-87521
Dell xps m1210 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-XPS-M1210-72725
Dell e1705 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-E1705-29541
Dell d830 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D830-85349
Dell inspiron 2200 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-2200-18148
Dell inspiron 640m battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-640m-35589
Dell inspiron b120 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-B120-49729
Dell xps m1210 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-XPS-M1210-72725
Dell inspiron xps m1710 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-XPS-M1710-40314
Dell inspiron 1100 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1100-Series-958
Dell 310-6321 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-310-6321-16655
Dell 1691p battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-1691P-114
Dell Inspiron 500m battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-500m-Series-8235
Dell 6Y270 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-6Y270-155
Dell inspiron 8600 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-8600-Series-8881
Latitude x300 series battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-X300-Series-1011
Dell latitude cpi battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-CPi-233ST-12787
Dell 1x793 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-1X793-118
dell Inspiron 1501 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1501-92712
Dell 75UYF Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-75UYF-157
Dell Inspiron 1720 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1720-93644
dell Latitude C640 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-C640-990
Dell XPS M140 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-XPS-M140-35591
Dell Inspiron E1405 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-E1405-56729
dell 700m battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-700m-Series-12974
dell C1295 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-C1295-17436
Dell U4873 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-U4873-16658
Dell Latitude C600 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/Dell-Latitude-C600-109072
TOSHIBA PA3307U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3307U-1BRS-8911
TOSHIBA PA3383U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3383U-1BRS-11337
TOSHIBA PA3384U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3384U-1BRS-10363
TOSHIBA PA3465U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3465U-1BRS-33488
Toshiba PA2487UR battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA2487UR-523
Toshiba A100 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/batteries.php/acer_bt.a1003.002_1599_16423
Toshiba Satellite A105 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-Satellite-A105-S101-33501
Toshiba A70 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-Satellite-A70-Series-47525
PA3062U-1BAT battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3062U-1BAT-550
Toshiba Satellite P30 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-Satellite-P30-47559
Toshiba PA3084U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3084U-1BRS-552
Toshiba PA3098U battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3098U-24266
PA3107U-1BAS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3107U-1BAS-555
PA3107U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3107U-1BRS-556
PA3166U-1BRS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3166U-1BRS-24284
PA3176U-1BAS battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3176U-1BAS-558
TOSHIBA PABAS076 Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PABAS076-47678
Toshiba pa3399u-1brs battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3399U-1BRS-29698
TOSHIBA PA3399U-2BAS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3399U-2BAS-32511
TOSHIBA PA3421U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3421U-1BRS-24829
TOSHIBA PA3456U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3456U-1BRS-16359
TOSHIBA Pa3356u-1brs battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3356U-1BRS-8436
Satellite a10 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-Satellite-A10-Series-115068
Pa3331u-1brs battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3331U-1BRS-24325
Satellite m30 series battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-Satellite-M30-Series-2048
Satellite pro m30 battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-Satellite-Pro-M30-24329
TOSHIBA PA3399U-1BRS Battery http://www.laptopbatteryinc.net.au/battery.php/toshiba-PA3399U-1BRS-29698

ACER Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_ACER
ASUS Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_ASUS
COMPAQ Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_COMPAQ
Dell Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_dell
FUJITSU Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_FUJITSU
HP Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_HP
IBM Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_IBM
SONY Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_SONY
TOSHIBA Laptop Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery-model.php/1_TOSHIBA
ACER AS07B42 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/ACER-AS07B42-94881
ACER GRAPE34 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/ACER-GRAPE34-94426
ACER LC.BTP00.006 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/ACER-LC.BTP00.006-94584
APPLE A1175 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/APPLE-A1175-84482
APPLE A1189 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/APPLE-A1189-85288
ASUS A32-F5 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/ASUS-A32-F5-116372
HP Pavilion dv2000 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/HP-Pavilion-dv2000-Series-83802
HP Pavilion dv1000 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/HP-Pavilion-DV1000-Series-45931
NX6120 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/HP-COMPAQ-Business-Notebook-NX6120-33160
HP ZV5000 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/HP-Pavilion-ZV5000-Series-114218
hp 510 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/HP-510-117089
HP F4809A battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/HP-F4809A-297
TOSHIBA PA3450U-1BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3450U-1BRS-35661
TOSHIBA PA3399U-1BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3399U-1BRS-29698
TOSHIBA PA3399U-1BAS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3399U-1BAS-29697
TOSHIBA PA3399U-2BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3399U-2BRS-32304
TOSHIBA PA3534U-1BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3534U-1BRS-83176
TOSHIBA PA3534U-1BAS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3534U-1BAS-110657
TOSHIBA PA3535U-1BAS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3535U-1BAS-83317
TOSHIBA PA3285U-3BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3285U-3BRS-33679
TOSHIBA PA3451U-1BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3451U-1BRS-33191
TOSHIBA PA3465U-1BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3465U-1BRS-33488
TOSHIBA PA3450U-1BRS battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/TOSHIBA-PA3450U-1BRS-35661
SONY PCGA-BP2NX battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/SONY-PCGA-BP2NX-485
Dell inspiron 1420 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1420-87717
Dell m1330 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-XPS-M1330-92762
Dell M1730 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/DELL-XPS-M1730-117737
Dell Inspiron 6400 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/DELL-Inspiron-6400-92713
Dell Inspiron 9200 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/DELL-Inspiron-9200-16657
Dell Inspiron 9400 Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-9400-29538
Dell Inspiron 1300 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1300-49734
dell D820 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D820-75036
Dell gd761 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-GD761-92703
Dell kd476 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-KD476-92717
Dell pc764 battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-PC764-72683
Dell Inspiron 640m Battery http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-640m-35589
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D800-Series-8879 Dell Latitude D800 battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-600m-Series-977 Dell Inspiron 600m battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-8100-23004 Dell Inspiron 8100 Battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Y9943-35592 Dell Y9943 battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-1521-93643 Dell Inspiron 1521 battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Inspiron-510m-11541 Dell Inspiron 510m battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D500-Series-998 Dell Latitude D500 battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-Latitude-D520-32645 Dell Latitude D520 battery
http://www.all-laptop-battery.co.uk/laptop-battery.php/Dell-GD761-92703 Dell GD761 battery
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